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Author Topic: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's (RESOLVED)  (Read 71776 times)

XS

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2013, 08:33:42 PM »

specific Remote IP addresses

What IP addresses are you using and why specific?
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FurryNutz

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2013, 08:53:31 PM »

The remote IP addresses listed in the sticky. They are MS addresses only. No need for the router to use any others since it's XBL.
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XS

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2013, 06:02:50 PM »

Incorrect set up Fury, I thought you fixed this?  Anyway XBL peer to peer, so you actually connect to other Xboxs that will be out of the MS IP range.  I got screen shots if you don't believe me, lol.
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FurryNutz

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2013, 06:48:00 PM »

MS services are only in a certain remote IP address range owned by MS thus I chose using that range. Ports I presume are what varies thus are using global ports. There was nothing to fix that I know of. We played for hours last night and both xboxes were OPEN. Never had any issues using this configuration.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 06:49:52 PM by FurryNutz »
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XS

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2013, 07:35:25 PM »

yeah its not going to cause issues but if you connect with someones Xbox outside that IP range, then all the packets to and from his Xbox will have the default priority of 128.   So basically you may be given someone the upper hand.
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DrunkJug

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2013, 07:45:26 PM »

Can you explain this a little better? I only play gears of war 3 these days. That series isnt known for its great net code. I run across people that have STRONG guns. I shoot them 5 times to their one or two shots that it takes them to kill me. My connection isnt bad as far as speed tests and ping tests. You are saying that certain configurations could be giving other players the upper hand?
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FurryNutz

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2013, 09:05:52 PM »

Well I went and put in global Remote IP addresses and Ports and we all got booted in the middle of the game. I have reverted back to using specific Remote IP addresses and Global Ports for now.
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Hard Harry

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 09:19:48 PM »

So in general, if using two Xbox; Turn on UPnP, make sure you have DHCP reservations, turn off QoS, and try to limit other traffic being used when gaming. If you want to know why I say that, read below.

Ok, let me see if I can shed some light on this.
First, the IP range for QoS rules doesn't matter. The QoS is only setting priority for traffic. To my understanding it is not routing it or firewalling it. So the worst that could happen is certain traffic inbound to your console from XBL or PSN is given a lower bandwidth marker then say....your torrent download, and so your bandwidth available for your Xbox or PS3 multiplayer is that much less. Its not going to make or break anything. 

Second, QoS only applies to traffic on the LAN, so it can't be directly used to get the upper hand. It can be used to improve your connection if you have other people trying to use the Xbox while your trying to game. It lets you divy out the bandwidth the network is giving certain devices, but if your there are only a couple devices using the internet while your gaming, then it doesn't matter. Actually, the very act of setting priority and detecting priority when WAN to LAN adds some latency (probably not much, maybe none, it depends) so if anything, it could hurt it. Think traffic light set on a timer on a very slow, quiet street. No point.

Third, when using two Xbox, your better off using UPnP for both. Thats because port forwarding can only be used to forward 1 set of ports to one device. If you have two Xboxs, you need 1 set of ports forwarded to two devices, which you can't do. UPnP, in simple terms, takes those ports, and creates random ports in the private port range 4915265535 and assigns a tag to each request on outbound. Its kind of how the NAT in your router takes the one IP your ISP gives you and create IP in the private 192 range. Make sense?
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XS

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2013, 04:46:34 AM »

I really don't think using global ports or IP range is causing anyone to get booted from the game.  Most likely coincidence, my clan members get booted from games all the time and they are not even using the DGL-4500.

Anyway, I understand how QoS works but here is the thing if you are using MS specific ports 65.52.0.0 - 65.55.255.255, any packets from IP address that are out of that range will have a priority of 128.
For exanple my IP starts in the 70's, 70.XXX.XXX.XXX, so if I was in your lobby playing with or against you, all packets incoming and outgoing from my Xbox to your Xbox, will have a pritority set to 128 while any one else who is inside that IP range will be what ever priority you set your GF rules to.

So any packets that are coming from me will be delayed to all other traffic with a higher priority, understand? This may are not be noticeable but why take a chance and why even set up GF rules if they are not set up correctly???

Anyway, I don't know about anyone else but there is enough lag in online gaming, so I refuse to add to it.

GF:
"GameFuel can also control data packet size. This is important because once GameFuel determines that it's time for an application's data to head out for the Internet, the entire packet will be sent. So in cases where the packet is large and low-priority, a higher-priority packet could be delayed that could cause your shot to miss or your voice to be garbled."

In conclusion,
Next time we play make sure you are set to global IP range so if you get host my packets won't have a higher priority than everyone else and be possibly delayed. ;)

This only applies if you are using manual GF rules.
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FurryNutz

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2013, 09:17:45 AM »

So, with all that and talking with Harry last nite, has given me some other testing cases to try out, HOWEVER after switching back to Specific MS IPs and using Global Ports and uPnP was ON, gaming last night was one of the best nights we've had.

Testimony here: I was lobby host, we did a 10+- game in a row win streak I think. Wins were at least 30-40 point spread on several. I only had one game that I went 0-1 and that was due to me camping a bit too much and not paying attention.  ::) All other games were at least 10-1 for me or 10-0 I had a few games where I didn't die any or only once. I had my roommate on the 5Ghz Wifi, Single mode N, WPA2 and AES only and my xbox was LAN wired to the 4500. We both were having good games last night along with our other team mates. Us and one other team mate were all in the green, 3 others were in the yellow. Not sure if I had host or who did or if maybe I just have the best router in the world configured for XBL.  ::) All this is using the specif MS Remote IP addresses and Global Ports, BOTH. I have a different GF rule to that encompasses ALL other devices for when they are online and if gaming is going on, they still get Internet however mostly when we game at our house, theres only my laptop online for checking router status and other odd ball stuff. Weekends are a bit different however theres only maybe one other PC online while gaming. Most of the gaming is done after 7pm MST.

I'm not implying or arguing that GF settings on various systems may have different results. I'm only saying that from what I'm currently using, experience and have been using has been working very well for Single and for the most part Multiple gaming consoles being online at the same time. I presume there are other various conditions that do and will effect gaming experiences. I do agree that maintaining the best network conditions for gamers starting with the ISP modems, routers and the configurations there in, are high priority areas and in some cases are not paid any attention to by some average gamers or users. Thus we see some lag and gaming problems with in the games.

I think for single console gaming and using GF or QoS isn't a big issue for the most part. Where it comes in to play is having to deal with multiple consoles being online at the same time and the router having to deal with it. I am here to see if we can help narrow the information regarding configuration of routers for these platforms so we can maybe build a better understanding and compile good information or even flexible information so that users can come and find out what they need when these use cases are presented to us.

It's been a long standing question with everyone on what really needs to be configured for gaming regarding GF or QoS, single console or multiple console. I have been a single console user for a long time, only in the past year that I've had to configure and test with a 2nd console and from what I can tell so far, what has been working for me in the past, is still working going forward with multiples. However this is not the only experience nor is it the last word either. I would like to gather up a consensus on various configurations from everyone and review and update the current sticky regarding this. Maybe this will help all the various users and configurations out there and help everyone gain a better experience with there routers and gaming.

Of course, we'll have to be flexible going forward as well, we have no idea what the future holds in regards to all this gaming configuration when the DGL-5500 hits. I'm really hoping that the configuration will be much easier for everyone and maybe we won't have to do a lot of manual configuration with it. Time will tell. 

My 2 cents.
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XS

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2013, 12:49:50 PM »

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Fury and yeah you camp too much, lol. :P
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FurryNutz

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2013, 12:51:53 PM »

However camping works very well.  ;D
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FurryNutz

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2013, 01:04:53 PM »

You should come camp with us more often sir.  :P
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XS

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2013, 03:47:00 PM »

Yeah I know but when your on I am just trying to squeeze couple of games, hopefully soon!  Just bought a 23" monitor, very nice!
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Hard Harry

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Re: Issues with NAT and 2 XBOX's
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2013, 04:00:46 PM »


I really don't think using global ports or IP range is causing anyone to get booted from the game.  Most likely coincidence, my clan members get booted from games all the time and they are not even using the DGL-4500. I agree with this.

Anyway, I understand how QoS works but here is the thing if you are using MS specific ports 65.52.0.0 - 65.55.255.255, any packets from IP address that are out of that range will have a priority of 128.
For exanple my IP starts in the 70's, 70.XXX.XXX.XXX, so if I was in your lobby playing with or against you, all packets incoming and outgoing from my Xbox to your Xbox, will have a pritority set to 128 while any one else who is inside that IP range will be what ever priority you set your GF rules to. Actually, XBL is not strictly P2P. Alot of people wish it was, but all multiplayer uses XBL as a proxy, so the IP's your router see won't be those of a actual person, but the XBL servers. Thats what port 3074 does, its the mechanism that NAT's the players IP address to Microsoft server IP. Thats why if you don't forward port 3074 to the Xbox, your NAT type is not Type 2 (excluding UPnP). If you don't believe me, look at your Internet Sessions next time you play and do a ARIN look up.

So any packets that are coming from me will be delayed to all other traffic with a higher priority, understand? This may are not be noticeable but why take a chance and why even set up GF rules if they are not set up correctly??? I disagree. QoS only works on the upload (Thats why part of setting Gamefuel/etc is setting the upload. Notice they never ask for download?). So when your setting the local IP, your defining which computer's upload traffic the rule applies to. So by having a rule that doesn't include a certian IP would only handi-cap yourself, since that upload traffic would get default priority.

Anyway, I don't know about anyone else but there is enough lag in online gaming, so I refuse to add to it.

GF:
"GameFuel can also control data packet size. This is important because once GameFuel determines that it's time for an application's data to head out for the Internet, the entire packet will be sent. So in cases where the packet is large and low-priority, a higher-priority packet could be delayed that could cause your shot to miss or your voice to be garbled."

In conclusion,
Next time we play make sure you are set to global IP range so if you get host my packets won't have a higher priority than everyone else and be possibly delayed. ;) I agree mostly with this surprisingly enough. I was actually the one that came up with that range, and it was only done because it felt...messy to include All IP. I mean if nothing else, there are entire private blocks within a 0 - .255 range. I could see that causing issues in a dual NAT situation. Also I was concerned that Gamefuel might override firewall rules, so it might allow sessions to be created by worms and bots and other things swarming the internet these days. In reconsideration, I don't think GF bypasses firewall, so specifying the range doesn't benefit you and could hinder you. Take note, I said hinder "you" I still don't think it would hinder others playing against you. If that was the case, QoS would be being used all over the place to help people win at FPS. That just isn't happening.

This only applies if you are using manual GF rules.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 06:43:52 AM by FurryNutz »
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