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D-Link FAQ => Router FAQ => Topic started by: FurryNutz on October 12, 2016, 02:55:05 PM

Title: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 12, 2016, 02:55:05 PM
History:
Average home sees 1 gaming console connected to the network. Given a general default single NAT condition configuration on the home network, being that the ISP modem doesn't have NAT and using a external home class router (DIR series), OPEN NAT is seen generally on the 1 game console and with in the game that is being played when and if the entire system is configured correctly. Some online multi-player games have networking features to show networking status and NAT condition. Call of Duty branded games are one example. Bungle games like Halo 4 and 5 also show networking status. MS has a networking status feature which checks networking configuration and speeds along with NAT status on there Xbox home menu system.

For multi-player online games OPEN NAT condition is critical for best gaming performances with others online along with QoS. This only effects multi-player online gaming with other players around the world using gaming services like Microsoft Xbox Live and Sony Playstation gaming services.

With the consideration of some homes having multiple people, there are some cases where there maybe more than 1 game console connected with in the house hold and playing same game title. This is seen with house holds having more than 1 or 2 cell phones and some streaming devices like TVs, streamers and game consoles that include streaming support. With a house hold having two or more game systems, we find that the users of these systems attempt to connect and configure them to be online at the same time and be able to play games online. Finding various posts and information about this I see various information about in game NAT status and users trying to achieve OPEN NAT in game for best gaming experiences. OPEN NAT on any game console is desired, recommended and preferred for all online gaming experiences. Over the years I have done my own testing and configurations with 1 game console and 2 game consoles and maxing out 3 connected game consoles with success.

Desire:
This post is in hopes that we can help D-Link and there router FW engineering group to ensure that D-Link router products can meet the needs of single gaming users as well as multiple gaming users while connected and online at the same time to 1 single NAT router.

Configuration and Testing
What works with two MS Xbox1 game consoles online at the same time and seeing OPEN NAT in game: Call of Duty - Black Ops 3
ISP: 100/3 Cable one
ISP Modem: Motorola SB 6121
Main Host Router: DIR-655 Rev B v2.11
Game consoles use: 2 MS Xboxs1 game consoles with the required Xbox Live user account subscription.
Game console "Instant ON" feature disabled on both. (Known issue with this feature when enabled that causes network and NAT issues.)
Connection: All LAN CAT6 connected between game consoles and router. Two Gb network switches in between #1 Xbox1 and the main host router. #2 Xbox1 is LAN cable directly to the back of the main host router.
Game used: Call of Duty - Black Ops 3

Router Configuration:
Public IP address ##.##.###.### seen on WAN port of main host router.
Xbox1 #1 is reserved IP address at 192.168.0.199. Xbox1 #2 is reserved IP address 192.168.0.198.
QoS/Traffic Shaping is enabled and configured to the following:
Local IP range - 192.168.0.198 to 192.168.0.199
Protocol - Both
Local and Remote Port Range - 0 to 65535
Remote IP range - 0.0.0.1 to 255.255.255.254
Priority - 50
uPnP is enabled.
DNS Relay and SPI disabled
Port Forwarding, Application or Virtual Server not used or configured.

Powering ON the xbox game consoles to check networking to make sure that the reserved IP addresses are correct on each game console.
Disable Instant ON feature on each Xbox1.
Turn OFF both game consoles.
Power OFF the ISP modem and main host router.
Power ON the ISP modem and let it sync(1-2min).
Power ON the main host router and let it come to ready and sync with the ISP modem and services. This also clears and sets up uPnP and routing tables.
Turn ON Xbox1 #1 and let it come to the game console dashboard menu.
Navigate to the Networking Settings menu and check NAT status. Should be OPEN.
Start the multi-player game, i.e. Call of Duty - Black Ops 3, and wait for the game to load.
Navigate into the Multi-Player game section. This will take the user to a game lobby.
Review the NAT status at the bottom of the screen. Should be OPEN.

Turn ON Xbox1 #2 and let it come to the game console dashboard menu.
Navigate to the Networking Settings menu and check NAT status. Should be OPEN.
Start the multi-player game, i.e. Call of Duty - Black Ops 3, and wait for the game to load.
Navigate into the Multi-Player game section. This will take the user to a game lobby.
Review the NAT status at the bottom of the screen. Should be OPEN.
NOTE: We seen various NAT status from Moderate to Strict and sometimes, powering OFF the #2 game console that didn't achieve OPEN NAT and turning it back on seems to eventually achieve OPEN NAT in the  Call of Duty - Black Ops 3 game if it was not achieved on first attempt.

During August of this year(2016), my household had 3 Xbox1 game consoles for two weeks. When using the DIR-655, and adding the 3rd game console to the router configuration. OPEN NAT was seen on the 3rd however sometimes Moderate was seen as well. I presume we may have been pushing the limits of the DIR-655 with 3 XBox1 all connected at the same time, however the 655 seem to do ok with powering OFF and ON the game console to eventually achieve OPEN NAT seen in Call of Duty -Black Ops 3.

In game multi-player experience and performance:
Gaming is good to excellent overall and while gaming performance is user based and skills with OPEN NAT being achieved on both game consoles, general overall gaming match making games are won with good team effort and using this networking configuration. We do see some gaming performance issues which can be caused by other player/users networking and ISP configurations and some LAN side bandwidth devices such as video streamers or downloaders on the same networking system. Then configuration seen above is a configuration to make sure that the gaming performance and experiences are achieved with highest level of operation for gaming as well and other devices that maybe in used on the same networking system. I my case above, we game in the late evening to late night time frames and no other users or devices are online using any or little bandwidth in my house hold. Yes we do take into account the various and many ISP and network configurations, there will be problems and maybe OPEN NAT can't be achieved with 2 or more game consoles are online at the same time.

What doesn't seem to work or partially work or results bad game NAT status: New Generation DIR series routers
ISP: 100/3 Cable one
ISP Modem: Motorola SB 6121
Main Host Router: DIR-880L Rev A1 v1.08WW or DIR-890L Rev A1 v1.09 and 1.10
Game consoles use: 2 MS Xbox 1 with the required Xbox Live user account subscription.
Game console "Instant ON" feature disabled on both. (Known issue with this feature when enabled that causes network and NAT issues.)
Game used: Call of Duty - Black Ops 3
Connection: All LAN CAT6 connected between game consoles and router. Two Gb network switches in between #1 Xbox1 and the main host router. #2 Xbox1 is LAN cable directly to the back of the main host router.
Public IP address ##.##.###.### seen on WAN port of main host router.
Xbox1 #1 is reserved IP address at 192.168.0.199. Xbox1 #2 is reserved IP address 192.168.0.198.
QoS Configured with the game console device tiles placed in the Highest and or High section(mixed). There is only one Highest section and two High sections available in the new UI. Both game console tiles were placed in the High section(same section) as well for testing.
uPnP is enabled.
DNS Relay and SPI disabled
Port Forwarding, or Virtual Server not used or configured.

Powering ON the Xbox game consoles to check networking to make sure that the reserved IP addresses are correct on each game console.
Disable Instant ON feature on each Xbox1.
Turn OFF both game consoles.
Power OFF the ISP modem and main host router.
Power ON the ISP modem and let it sync(1-2min).
Power ON the main host router and let it come to ready and sync with the ISP modem and services. This also clears and sets up uPnP and routing tables.
Turn ON Xbox1 #1 and let it come to the game console dashboard menu.
Navigate to the Networking Settings menu and check NAT status. Should be OPEN.
Start the multi-player game, i.e. Call of Duty - Black Ops 3, and wait for the game to load.
Navigate into the Multi-Player game section. This will take the user to a game lobby.
Review the NAT status at the bottom of the screen. Should be OPEN.

Turn ON Xbox1 #2 and let it come to the game console dashboard menu.
Navigate to the Networking Settings menu and check NAT status. Should be OPEN. May show Moderate.
Start the multi-player game, i.e. Call of Duty - Black Ops 3, and wait for the game to load.
Navigate into the Multi-Player game section. This will take the user to a game lobby.
Review the NAT status at the bottom of the screen. Should be OPEN however shows MODERATE or STRICT.

NOTE: We've seen that NAT status seen in game may depend upon which game console is actually turned ON first. So If Xbo1 #2 was turned on first and Xbox1 #1 was turned on last, OPEN NAT status maybe seen on the game console that was turned ON and connected first.

In game multi-player experience and performance:
With one game console achieving OPEN NAT and the 2nd game console achieving Moderate, same gaming performances maybe slow movements or laggy or when both users are in a game lobby waiting to connect with other friendly players and join in the lobby for team gaming experiences can be problematic as sometimes we can't hear voices from other players in the lobby, can't connect to join an invitation to a lobby or in game performance is reduced causing game lag and or missed targets and slow video motion, movement or pixelation.

Testing this between 3 different routers (DIR-655, 880L and 890L) with 2 Xbox1 game consoles and setting up the configuration of each router. From what I see and experience, I believe there is a problem in the way QoS and or uPnP is handling Ports and connecting Port numbers that are needed by the MS Xblox live services and with the what the actual game requires and usage for when two or more game consoles are connected for online gaming and attaining OPEN NAT thru out the game networking system. From experience, we know that 3074 is the main Xbox live services subscription and gaming port. We believe and I have seen in the routing tables that other virtual ports are being used, i.e. 3075 and subsequent port numbers.
MS Xbox Live and Game port usage information: This assumes only one game console being online.
https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/networking/network-ports-used-xbox-live (https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/networking/network-ports-used-xbox-live)
http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_support/networking-hardware/10__xbox_live_port_list/f/5515.aspx (http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_support/networking-hardware/10__xbox_live_port_list/f/5515.aspx)

D-Link forum router configuration gathered from personal experience:
http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=42011.0 (http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=42011.0)
I need to update the linked picture images as they are not working correctly due to using of a bad image file server. I'll update the link soon for picture example review.

NAT Test data with D-Link and other brand Mfr routers:
http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21&sid=717403d1fc92ca9ac2e95c4eaf90d127 (http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21&sid=717403d1fc92ca9ac2e95c4eaf90d127)


With the experiences seen on newer generation routers, We presume that uPnP is playing a roll in acquiring and connecting to other virtual ports when needed when port 3074 is captured and used by the first connected game console, thus when the 2nd game console is connected, uPnP should be setting up a virtual 2ndary port for use by the 2nd game console, however maybe either uPnP or QoS handling behaviors on the newer generation routers (DIR_8XXL) seems to be failing with the above configuration compared to the older DIR-655 series router tested above which seems to work.

Older historical testing was a few years ago (2012-13 est) using a DIR-645 v1.04 and 2 MS Xbox 360s and I think we were gaming with Call of Duty Modern Warefare 3 and Black Ops 1 or 2 at the time. I'll have to dig into more time frame details later. I do remember OPEN NAT was seen on both MS Xbox 360 game consoles while connected and gaming at the same time while using the DIR-645. Other routers tested was the DIR-868L however I can't fully remember if I had 2 Xbox game consoles during that time frame used on the 868L.

I'm hoping that with this and some additional user input information from other users with two or more game consoles, we can set a standard configuration for multiple game consoles being online at the same time when using D-Link model routers and help D-Link router products to work well with this type of game configuration. I believe as time goes on, more house holds will see more game console systems being used in multi-person house holds and using a D-link router product will prove to be a good customer product for gaming and general router needs.

Please let me know if any additional information, configuration and testing is needed.

Thank you for your time and consideration.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BiggShooter on October 12, 2016, 03:48:04 PM
This is a very good summery of the current issues relating to gaming gaming (Xbox One gaming consoles) and the latest generation of D'Link routers.  I have the DIR-890L and CANNOT achieve OPEN NAT on both my Xbox One gaming consoles.  It seems whichever Xbox One console gets turned on first, that is the Xbox One gaming console that "wins" the OPEN NAT award. 

I'm hoping this issue becomes a "thing of the past" and we can find a fix to end this issue, once and for all! 
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 12, 2016, 03:54:27 PM
Please copy and paste the configuration text and edit to reflect your network HW and configuration please.  ;)

The more information we gather, the better D-Link can review and understand the situation.

This is a very good summery of the current issues relating to gaming gaming (Xbox One gaming consoles) and the latest generation of D'Link routers.  I have the DIR-890L and CANNOT achieve OPEN NAT on both my Xbox One gaming consoles.  It seems whichever Xbox One console gets turned on first, that is the Xbox One gaming console that "wins" the OPEN NAT award. 

I'm hoping this issue becomes a "thing of the past" and we can find a fix to end this issue, once and for all!
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BiggShooter on October 13, 2016, 03:06:13 PM
This is a very good summery of the current issues relating to gaming gaming (Xbox One gaming consoles) and the latest generation of D'Link routers.  I have the DIR-890L and CANNOT achieve OPEN NAT on both my Xbox One gaming consoles.  It seems whichever Xbox One console gets turned on first, that is the Xbox One gaming console that "wins" the OPEN NAT award. 

I'm hoping this issue becomes a "thing of the past" and we can find a fix to end this issue, once and for all!

Two Xbox One gaming consoles connected via CAT6 - one Xbox One gaming console is connected directly to 890L LAN port, and second Xbox One is connected to a HP Switch (which is connected directly to 890L LAN port.  890L is connected to Motorola SB 6180.  ISP Speed is 100/5 (Cable)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 25, 2016, 02:21:48 PM
Since you told me that "Instant ON" was enabled on both of your game consoles, can you retest your configuration again with it disabled?
Game console "Instant ON" feature should be disabled on both. (Known issue with this feature when enabled that causes network and NAT issues.)

This is a very good summery of the current issues relating to gaming gaming (Xbox One gaming consoles) and the latest generation of D'Link routers.  I have the DIR-890L and CANNOT achieve OPEN NAT on both my Xbox One gaming consoles.  It seems whichever Xbox One console gets turned on first, that is the Xbox One gaming console that "wins" the OPEN NAT award. 

I'm hoping this issue becomes a "thing of the past" and we can find a fix to end this issue, once and for all!

Two Xbox One gaming consoles connected via CAT6 - one Xbox One gaming console is connected directly to 890L LAN port, and second Xbox One is connected to a HP Switch (which is connected directly to 890L LAN port.  890L is connected to Motorola SB 6180.  ISP Speed is 100/5 (Cable)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on January 23, 2017, 10:20:34 AM
This issue maybe MS and 1st generation XB1 related as one user mentioned he found information pointing towards uPnP issues seen on 1st generation XB1s.
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-6#post-300859 (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-6#post-300859)

Over all, there maybe issues with uPnP seen on MS XB1 consoles and various Mfr routers. At most, I've been able to achieve OPEN NAT on xbox dash board and in game (CoD BO3) with 2 and 3 XB1s online at the same time using D-Links DIR-655 and DGL-4500. Newer generation routers like the DIR-890L and 880L, I seem to have more problems achieving OPEN NAT in GAME and feel this maybe more of a in game detection issue rather than a router or uPnP issue. Newer generation DIR series routers have more simplified QoS configurations where older DIR series have more granular or advanced user configurations allowing users to configure more advanced scenarios in there configurations which may also play a role.

I believe there maybe a few different areas that are at play here, i.e. NAT configuration, router configuration, router and game console uPnP code and handling when there are two or more game consoles online at the same time. One game console isn't effected unless ISP service and modem NAT are at play while using a external router. Single game console and single ISP NAT configurations most always results in OPEN NAT on xbox dashboard and in game (CoD BO3).
ISP modem (stand alone, no built in router)>External main host router(DIR series)<>xbox game console(s) connected to main host router.

I've come to the conclusion that NAT status needs to be reviewed at the xbox networking dashboard first and foremost and should be considered high priority status over any in game NAT status. NAT status impacts connections in game and how the gamers are connected and operate with games that are multi gamer match made and how gamers get into gaming lobbies and interact with other gamers around the world. It can also effect gamer in game performances as well. I've seen bad lobby's were team mates have problems joining the lobby and or not being able to talk to others while in the lobby or in game when NAT is Moderate or Strict seen on the xbox network dashboard and in game.




Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: ndcnick2000 on April 20, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
I have been fighting this issues for the past several years, I have 5 kids all boys and they all have their own xbox, I also play so we have a total of 6 xbox ones on my network

A little history, I am an audio video tech, I deal with networking all the time, I have even done work for a service provider, so I was having a conversation with a tech at the headquarters and he told me that the modem blocks the NAT and there is nothing that we can do to change it

I have purchased a ton of network equipment to fix the issue with no luck.... UNTIL NOW!!!!

I had ATT uverse 75mbs down and no matter what I could not get open NAT on more than one xbox I even purchased the new netgear s8000 gaming router and no luck

in a last ditch attempt to keep my sanity and after hours yelling on the phone with ATT and refusing to purchase a block of IP address I gave up and canceled my service.. I called Suddenlink and purchased the 400mbs service and I bought a netgear modem off of amazon BAM open NAT on 6 xbox ones at the same time

the trick is that the netgear modem is just a point of access to the internet with no firewalls or filters, the D-Link has the power to do the rest..

my setup

suddenlink 400mb service
D-Link DIR-890l connected directly to the Netgear CM700
I have a D-link 16 port gigabit switch connected to the D-Link router and all of the xbox ones wired to it

it works and I have had it for about a month



Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on April 21, 2017, 10:54:04 AM
Link>Welcome! (http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=48135.0)



Wow, a house hold with  6 xbox game consoles. Nice. Ya I would bet you had a hell of a time. I know I have over the years with two and three.

I'm old school audio phile and tech and now professional test engineer.  ;)

So one thing that sticks out with you situation, you said your previous ISP Modem was a ATT Uverse. This is important, these modems have a built in router. So connecting any other external router to this modem will cause NAT issues. We call this "double NAT" condition. I some cases some ISP modems can be bridged thus disabling the router portion of the modem however most ATT Uverse modems can't be. So I presume that when you got your new NG CM700 modem, you do know that this modem modem doesn't have a router built in, which is preferred. So when you got it all connected up, you are now in a single NAT condition which is preferred for any game console. Any why now you gat OPEN NAT on all game consoles. 

So there are two NAT statuses that you need to be aware of on the xbox, Dashboard and In-game. Dashboard being the most important. Is Open NAT being seen on all 6 consoles on there Dashboards? In-game NAT is the NAT status that the game detects as well. We've found this status to be a bit more problematic and not as accurate as the Dashboard NAT status. I've seen problems getting In-game OPEN NAT here and there. Some of this is caused by the network adapter and configuration on the game console. The one time I had 3 XB1s under one roof was last year, and had to use a older DIR series model router to get OPEN NAT across 3 consoles for In-game NAT status using this configuration for BO3:
Gaming and QoS for XBL (http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=42011.0)
This is one NAT situtation with same game being played across all game consoles.

Question, how do you have your 890L setup and configured with all 6 XB1s? Any QoS configurations done here or no?
What games are being played. Any same name games being played at the same time like BO3?
Also FYI, about our NG CM700, This is a Intel based modem. Puma 6 to be exact. There has been some issues reported with this chip set over on the dslReports site:
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mistake (https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31079834-ALL-SB6190-is-a-terrible-modem-Intel-Puma-6-MaxLinear-mistake)
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31122204-SB6190-Puma6-TCP-UDP-Network-Latency-Issue-Discussion (https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31122204-SB6190-Puma6-TCP-UDP-Network-Latency-Issue-Discussion)
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31340594-ALL-SB6190-and-CM700-latency-fix-firmware-ready-to-test (https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31340594-ALL-SB6190-and-CM700-latency-fix-firmware-ready-to-test)

The issue is being addressed by Arris and Intel and from what I can tell, NG however they are less vocal about it.

Definitely like your feed back and hope we can discuss this more with you. Any and all information regarding more than one game console is helpful.
Glad it's working for you though.  ;)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 20, 2017, 10:30:15 AM
Summary - Some games have in game NAT reporting conditions for best performance and optimal lobby experiences with gaming and playing with other remote players. When Moderate or Strict NAT is seen, players have a hard time getting joining lobbies with other players they want to play with and in game experiences may suffer and not be as well as with OPEN NAT. Moderate or Strict NAT is a bad thing for gamers.

This is a test process that shows how In Game NAT status changes depending on which game console and game is loaded first. Regardless of how QoS is configured, with or with out.

DIR-890L with V1.11 B02 Beta loaded fresh and clean factory reset.
Wired Laptop using IE11 and no other devices connected to the router. Just Laptop and 2 xbox ones connected via LAN cable.
IP address reservations set for each game console. .198 and .199.
No QoS configured accept for isp speed.
Xboxes have Instant ON disabled as this is a known issue to cause connection and NAT problems.
Game tested - CoD Black Ops 3
uPnP enabled and NO Port Forwarding rules enabled.

Turn on XBox 1 gets OPEN NAT in dash board and in game
Turn on XBox 2 gets OPEN NAT in dash board and Moderate NAT in game.

Soft Power off both xboxes then,
Turn on XBox 2 gets open NAT in dash and Moderate NAT in game. Exited the game then restarted the game to see if NAT status changed. Still Moderate NAT in game. Leave ON.
Turn on XBox 1 gets OPEN NAT in dash board and in game.
Turn off both xboxes using hard power off and reboot the router.

Turn on XBox 2 first and OPEN NAT in dash board and in game.
Turn on XBox 1 2nd and OPEN NAT in dash baord and Moderate nat in game.
Hard power off both xboxes.

Configure QoS for application feature and set Gaming as highest priority. Save settings and full reboot router.

Turn on XBox 1 first and OPEN NAT in dash board and in game.
Turn on XBox 2 2nd and OPEN NAT in dash board and Moderate NAT in game.

Hard power off both xboxes.

I skipped going back and turning on xbox 2 then xbox 1 as I presume we would see the NAT change to OPEN across the board for XBox 2 and see Moderate NAT in game for Xbox 1 as I already tested this swap of turning them on and saw the Moderate NAT mode to the other xbox.

Configure QoS by Device feature. Setting both xboxes in the high priority section. Save settings and full reboot the router.

Turn on XBox 1 and OPEN NAT in dash board and in game.
Turn on Xbox 2 and OPEN NAT in dash board and Moderate NAT in game. Exited the game then restarted the game to see if any thing changed. Moderate NAT still in game.

Hard Power off both xboxes.
Full reboot of router.

Turn on xbox 2 and OPEN NAT in dash board and in game.
Turn on xbox 1 and OPEN NAT in dash board and Moderate NAT in game.

Hard power off both xboxes. Full reboot of router.
Turn on xbox 1 and OPEN NAT in dash board.
Turn on xbox 2 and OPEN NAT in dash board.
Load game and check NAT on XBox 1 and OPEN NAT.
Load game and check NAT on Xbox 2 and Moderate NAT.

I've seen this behavior ever since the new UI with the DIR-880L came out and have not been able to achieve OPEN NAT in game with tow or more game consoles connected to the same router all playing the same game with the newer generation routers. I believe there is a design issue with uPnP and how it behaves when two or more game consoles are connected and come online when turned on.  I have been able to get OPEN NAT in game with two or more game consoles playing the same game with older DIR/DGL series routers and a non D-Link Mfr'd router with just using uPnP and no Port Forwarding configurations. So I believe this is possible technically and I'm hoping that D-Link can review this and delve into this and see if this can be corrected in FW for there newer generation routers. Not being able to achieve OPEN NAT in game for two or more game consoles playing the same game or even different can be a factor in some router usage and could lead some gamers to use other routers that can support two or more game consoles while playing the same game. This is the main reason why I haven't been using the 880L and 890L as a main router due to this reason when I have two or more game consoles online at the same time. I would like to see this resolved finally.

I hope I can be of help in gathering more troubleshooting data if needed.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 21, 2017, 10:01:46 AM
Got some info from D-Link yesterday and today.
"-This thread kinda explains how UPnP works with Xbox one and so far it is a known bug.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=931438 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=931438)

-Here is another thread with PS4 with the same issue.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1116370 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1116370)

Have you tried Virtual server? set internal port the same but external port to some other number.

Example:
Name: xbox1
Local IP: 192.168.0.11
Protocol: Both
External: 3076
Internal port : 3074

Name: xbox2
Local IP: 192.168.0.12
Protocol: Both
External: 3075
Internal port : 3074?

Yesterday was to enable Virtual Server on the DIR-890L and configure each xbox for external virtual ports and same 3074 internal ports using BOTH protocols.
Test results of that.
Test VS configurations:
DNS relay disabled upon initial set up of router after loading new FW.
XB1 OPEN NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.
Hard power off xbox and power cycled router.
XB1 OPEN NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.
Hard power off XB1 to off.
Power cycled router.
XB2 OPEN NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.
Hard power off both Xboxes

DNS relay enabled and reboot of router:
XB1 OPEN NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.
XB2 OPEN NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.

DNS Relay enabled and uPnP disabled with reboot of router:
XB1 Strict NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.
XB2 Strict NAT on dashboard, Moderate NAT in game.

Today I got more information on adding more ports to VS:
"Apply the static port mappings with UPnP disabled. You may need to map more ports as required by Xbox Live.
TCP: 53, 80, 3074.
UDP: 53, 88, 500, 3074, 3544, 4500."
Waiting on how to exactly use this in the VS Ui to ensure this is being set up correctly.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on July 24, 2017, 07:28:57 AM
Furry,

Nice results.

Try these:
1. Disable QoS,UPnP and DNS relay.
2. Remove any VS rules,
3. Add a Port Forwarding rule with these ports on one Xbox.
TCP: 53, 80, 3074.
UDP: 53, 88, 500, 3074, 3544, 4500

The goal here is to achieve Open NAT on Xbox1's dashboard and in-game (COD:BO3).
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on July 24, 2017, 08:50:27 AM
Hello ndcnick2000,

So you manage to get Open NAT status on all 5 Xbox's with a different Modem?

I have been fighting this issues for the past several years, I have 5 kids all boys and they all have their own xbox, I also play so we have a total of 6 xbox ones on my network

A little history, I am an audio video tech, I deal with networking all the time, I have even done work for a service provider, so I was having a conversation with a tech at the headquarters and he told me that the modem blocks the NAT and there is nothing that we can do to change it

I have purchased a ton of network equipment to fix the issue with no luck.... UNTIL NOW!!!!

I had ATT uverse 75mbs down and no matter what I could not get open NAT on more than one xbox I even purchased the new netgear s8000 gaming router and no luck

in a last ditch attempt to keep my sanity and after hours yelling on the phone with ATT and refusing to purchase a block of IP address I gave up and canceled my service.. I called Suddenlink and purchased the 400mbs service and I bought a netgear modem off of amazon BAM open NAT on 6 xbox ones at the same time

the trick is that the netgear modem is just a point of access to the internet with no firewalls or filters, the D-Link has the power to do the rest..

my setup

suddenlink 400mb service
D-Link DIR-890l connected directly to the Netgear CM700
I have a D-link 16 port gigabit switch connected to the D-Link router and all of the xbox ones wired to it

it works and I have had it for about a month




Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 24, 2017, 09:35:13 AM
Roger that. I'll try this later today.  ;)

Furry,

Nice results.

Try these:
1. Disable QoS,UPnP and DNS relay.
2. Remove any VS rules,
3. Add a Port Forwarding rule with these ports on one Xbox.
TCP: 53, 80, 3074.
UDP: 53, 88, 500, 3074, 3544, 4500

The goal here is to achieve Open NAT on Xbox1's dashboard and in-game (COD:BO3).
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on July 24, 2017, 02:53:52 PM
Furry,

For the DIR-655, Which h/w and f/w version used to test?

If you look at the NAT endpoint filtering via Firewall settings. Which settings achieved a "Open NAT" on the dashboard and in-game?
http://support.dlink.com/emulators/dir655/133NA/Advanced.html#Firewall
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on July 24, 2017, 03:59:29 PM
Never mind just need to read.

"Main Host Router: DIR-655 Rev B v2.11"
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 24, 2017, 04:30:48 PM
On the 655 Rev B. Both TCP and UDP were are set for Endpoint Independent. Someone found this setting years ago on the DGL-4500 and we've kept that setting on the older UI since.

Furry,

For the DIR-655, Which h/w and f/w version used to test?

If you look at the NAT endpoint filtering via Firewall settings. Which settings achieved a "Open NAT" on the dashboard and in-game?
http://support.dlink.com/emulators/dir655/133NA/Advanced.html#Firewall
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 24, 2017, 05:21:48 PM
Ok, nothing in QoS, SPI, DNS and uPnP disabled.
Configured the following in Port Forwarding on the router for 1 xbox:
(https://image.ibb.co/hjOfEk/PFwith1_Xbox_One.png)
Open NAT on dash board, Moderate NAT on BO3.
Hard powered off the xbox and rebooted the router to be sure. Still Moderate NAT in game.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BIPOLAR BEAR on July 26, 2017, 12:47:13 PM
        Cable connection-120+/10+, SB6183 Modem, D-Link 890L router                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       After much prodding from a good friend FurryNutz, I am posting findings with the DIR 890L. I was out of state working for 7 months and didn't have the router with me. Upon returning home and trying to play some Xbox with my gf. I found that the router Qos was seeing my smartphone, make and manufacturer, my laptop both make and manufacturer under WAN. Since it does not have an Ethernet port I am forced to use a USB/Ethernet adapter for download my FW updates. It sees the adapter but also recognizes the Laptop.
   When I noticed this the current FW was 1.10. So upon contacting said friend we (along with DLINK) we decided to downgrade the FW to 1.08, then 1.09, with different but basically the same results, XBOX unknown application, unknown vendor, Seeing the smart phone but not always the manufacturer, Laptop WAN as a Desktop, the list goes on.
   After each download I carefully and meticulously went through the update steps, to the point that I downgraded my cat6 gigabyte cable on both Xboxes to a cat6, then eventually to a cat5e. Eliminating this as a problem. I went further after a factory reset and unplugged the external hard drives on each device to eliminate this as a possible misread issue by the router when it was determining the make, manufacturer, and intended use for this device by the router Qos.
   With each factory reset the desired performance failed to be achieved by the router when reserving DHCP, it was unable to see any of listed devices by their make intended use. Besides the smartphone (it was always seen as a smart phone) the other devices were misread. My laptop was one time a gaming pc, unknown make and manufacturer. The Xboxes were both repeated as unknown.
   So upon downloading the FW v1.11 BO3. with the cat6 gigabyte cable and the external HD connected to the Xboxes, it shows XB1 as a gaming console with unknown manufacturer, the other XB2 is shown as an Xbox one, but listed as a windows phone, smartphone. This was done with Qos set as manage by devices. (once the device is turned off and it is done resonating on the router DHCP the devices seem to go to unknown again) Until powering them back on and the router will see them. Although it appears to still see the connecting cable for the LAN on my pc and identifies it, along with the smartphone.
   I set both Xboxes to power saving mode, left Qos to manage by application, left my manually input upstream, and downstream speeds, left upnp on, as well as DNS relay. Upon powering both Xboxes on they both had open NAT.
   Since under connected devices it shows unknown on both Xboxes, without Qos set to manage by device I cannot tell how it sees Xbox1. However I feel it's seen as a gaming console, Xbox2 more than likely a windows smart phone, My Laptop LAN is still shown as unknown vendor and type. It does still see my smartphone correctly by make, manufacturer, and application. After all it is the most important device on my network...HAHAHAHAHAHA!
   I believe that further testing is needed. I have doubts that if the router does not see the devices in full how can it know how to allocate traffic. I will give this a try and will see how well it handles the mild traffic on this network.
 
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 26, 2017, 02:30:40 PM
Nice to see you back Sir.
"I set both Xboxes to power saving mode, left Qos to manage by application, left my manually input upstream, and downstream speeds, left upnp on, as well as DNS relay. Upon powering both Xboxes on they both had open NAT. " Was this on dashboard and in game?
What games you loading on both consoles?
Where did you place if anything, i.e. GAMING application in the priority section? I currently have GAMING in the HIGHEST section.

This is one thing I haven't tested, DNS Relay. Mines been disabled. I'll follow up with this test soon.

        Cable connection-120+/10+, SB6183 Modem, D-Link 890L router                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       After much prodding from a good friend FurryNutz, I am posting findings with the DIR 890L. I was out of state working for 7 months and didn't have the router with me. Upon returning home and trying to play some Xbox with my gf. I found that the router Qos was seeing my smartphone, make and manufacturer, my laptop both make and manufacturer under WAN. Since it does not have an Ethernet port I am forced to use a USB/Ethernet adapter for download my FW updates. It sees the adapter but also recognizes the Laptop.
   When I noticed this the current FW was 1.10. So upon contacting said friend we (along with DLINK) we decided to downgrade the FW to 1.08, then 1.09, with different but basically the same results, XBOX unknown application, unknown vendor, Seeing the smart phone but not always the manufacturer, Laptop WAN as a Desktop, the list goes on.
   After each download I carefully and meticulously went through the update steps, to the point that I downgraded my cat6 gigabyte cable on both Xboxes to a cat6, then eventually to a cat5e. Eliminating this as a problem. I went further after a factory reset and unplugged the external hard drives on each device to eliminate this as a possible misread issue by the router when it was determining the make, manufacturer, and intended use for this device by the router Qos.
   With each factory reset the desired performance failed to be achieved by the router when reserving DHCP, it was unable to see any of listed devices by their make intended use. Besides the smartphone (it was always seen as a smart phone) the other devices were misread. My laptop was one time a gaming pc, unknown make and manufacturer. The Xboxes were both repeated as unknown.
   So upon downloading the FW v1.11 BO3. with the cat6 gigabyte cable and the external HD connected to the Xboxes, it shows XB1 as a gaming console with unknown manufacturer, the other XB2 is shown as an Xbox one, but listed as a windows phone, smartphone. This was done with Qos set as manage by devices. (once the device is turned off and it is done resonating on the router DHCP the devices seem to go to unknown again) Until powering them back on and the router will see them. Although it appears to still see the connecting cable for the LAN on my pc and identifies it, along with the smartphone.
   I set both Xboxes to power saving mode, left Qos to manage by application, left my manually input upstream, and downstream speeds, left upnp on, as well as DNS relay. Upon powering both Xboxes on they both had open NAT.
   Since under connected devices it shows unknown on both Xboxes, without Qos set to manage by device I cannot tell how it sees Xbox1. However I feel it's seen as a gaming console, Xbox2 more than likely a windows smart phone, My Laptop LAN is still shown as unknown vendor and type. It does still see my smartphone correctly by make, manufacturer, and application. After all it is the most important device on my network...HAHAHAHAHAHA!
   I believe that further testing is needed. I have doubts that if the router does not see the devices in full how can it know how to allocate traffic. I will give this a try and will see how well it handles the mild traffic on this network.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 26, 2017, 03:31:19 PM
Tried with QoS enabled for Application, GAMING in Highest section and DNS relay ENABLED. 1st console had OPEN NAT across the board, 2nd console got OPEN NAT on dashboard and Moderate NAT in game (BO3 and BO2).

I hard powered off both xboxes and rebooted the router. This time I powered on the 2nd xbox and BO2 still showed Moderate NAT while the 1st xbox that was powered on 2nd showed OPEN NAT across the board.

I'm going to remove the 890L and put on my DGL-4500 Rev A2 with v1.23 loaded on it.  :-\
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 27, 2017, 10:32:51 AM
So before I put the 4500 online yesterday, I was talking to Bear more and I got more information that he neglected to include in his post.  ::)

He told me that he manually inputs DNS addresses into each xbox console. Leaving all other addresses auto assigned by the router.
He said he's using some DNS on his xbox and Google DNS on the 2nd xbox with QoS enabled using Application mode with GAMING in Highest section and DNS Relay enabled and no Port Forwarding and uPnP enable.

So I figured lets try this on the 890L.
I manually input my ISPs DNS on mine and used 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 on the 2nd console. Saved settings and hard powered off both consoles and rebooted the router.

I still had BO2 in both consoles so I fired up my xbox with BO2. OPEN NAT across the board. I also noticed that I could actually get into the lobby this time as before I made this DNS change, upon selecting A, the game would stall and sit there and eventually gave me a server not connecting error message. I noticed that as in the upper right hand corner of the screen there is a serial number versioning displayed here for most CoD games. BO2 was showing 44.-01 before I made the manual DNS change. Now after I changed the DNS, now I get 44.#.#.## displayed and I was able to get into the gaming lobby.

I fired up the 2nd xbox and check dash board and in game. WOW, both OPEN NAT. Woo Hoo.  :o

Hard powered off both consoles after removing BO2 disk.
Powered on my xbox and loaded the BO3 disk. OPEN NAT across the board.
Powered on the 2nd xbox, OPEN NAT on the dashboard and Moderate NAT in BO3.  :-[ Dang.
Exited from BO3 game to the dashboard then reloaded the game. Still Moderate NAT. Hmmm

I had to stop testing as I had a evening event to attend.
Seems like we are getting a bit closer in some of this. Possible that there are some differences in how BO2 and BO3 are behaving with this router and these settings. Might be that BO3 is either more critical on his networking and processing behavior than BO2 is. I have BO1 for both consoles and will check on it.

Even though I'm hoping that we can get more similar set up configuration process experiences more like the DIR-655 and DGL-4500, with out the need to do any configurations on the consoles and just using QoS and uPnP should be enough to get OPEN NAT across the board for two or more consoles. We hope.

I still plan to re-test the DGL-4500 or the DIR-655 again today I hope.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on July 27, 2017, 04:07:02 PM
It seems the Xbox is not very consistent when detecting used or open ports. I've been visiting different forums, regarding this same issue.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=142546231&postcount=118
This thread shows the debug logs, after a reboot or standby mode. It grabs a 3074 port but removes the mapping after it goes to sleep. Then when it wakes up it does not even request the port back.

https://miniupnp.tuxfamily.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1707
This thread talks about the Xbox1 trying to steal port 3074 from another Xbox1. Basically, communication between the UPnP server and client is buggy. the Xbox's UPnP will get lost when the port it wants is used. Users were able to modify or code their own UPnP server just so it will work. It is a mess.

Microsoft should be able to replicate this issue very easily and implement a better UPnP client that will work with a lot of router manufactures. I've heard that 2 or more Xbox consoles were never really tested in the same LAN network by Microsoft.

This inconsistency is making it very difficult to determine the root cause.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 27, 2017, 05:48:47 PM
Yes some of those issues are with Instant ON enabled that allows Sleep mode. ALL of my testing including Bears is with Instant ON disabled.

I presume that MS, Sony and other router Mfrs have not fully tested more than one consoles. I feel that I've been the only one to take on this task along with others that I know have 2 or more game consoles. I'd like to see D-Link delve into this with me while I have the resources under one house. LOL. I think MS/Sony would be somewhat interested in this as well as more and more now days, one house hold has more then one game console. Also there maybe additional underlying issues with particular games as well. Even with static DNS set last nite on both XBoxes, BO2 would be OPEN NAT across the board while BO3 was Moderate NAT on the 2nd xbox using same configuration.  ::)

So I took the 890L off line a bit ago and installed D-Links greatest gaming router ever.  ;D
I configured QoS as seen here:
DGL-4500 Gaming and Gamefuel for XBL (http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=10435.0)
Reservations for each console with uPnP enabled and no PF or Gaming Application rules set. Only QoS. Firewall set for Endpoint Independent.
Changed both static DNS back to automatic.

Both consoles are OPEN NAT across the board including in BO3. Man I love the DGL-4500.  ::)

I'll be playing some xbox and BO3 tonite and will see how it goes. Since the 4500s QoS uplink is capped at 2 or 3 Mb, I'm seeing that QoS isn't estimating my ISP speed as I'm at a 3Mb spec. This is ok. Will see how it goes anyways. OPEN NAT ALL THE WAY on the DGL-4500.  ;D

Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on July 31, 2017, 08:44:30 AM
Ok, I got more information regarding the difference between DIR-655 and DIR-880L, in terms of UPnP type.

If you have not noticed the DIR-655 has "NAT Endpoint filtering" option, this can change the way how UPnP will behave and selecting "endpoint Independent" equates a "full cone" NAT or in Xbox's term "Open NAT"

Unfortunately, the "next generation" of D-Link routers (DIR-880L, DIR-890L, etc)  uses a propriety UPnP implementation and programmed as a "Symmetric NAT" by default or design.

http://www.think-like-a-computer.com/2011/09/19/symmetric-nat/
The link above will describe the Xbox1's client-to-server or client-to-client negotiation process. You wouldn't want symmetric NAT because a single Xbox1 will require another port to connect to another player, simply because its IP address is different from the Xbox Live server.

Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on July 31, 2017, 09:09:12 AM
Also why the DGL-4500 works. Than you for this information.
Reminds me that others had discussed this over on smallnetbuilders forum:
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/ (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/)
Someone brought up the Full Cone vs Symmetric NAT types in this discussion.

I presume that even with using any kind of Port Forwarding configurations, that we won't be able to see good OPEN NAT across the board on multiple game consoles and will continue to be problematic on these routers with Symmetric NAT type?

Is there anything that D-Link could do to add the ability for newer generation routers to include "full cone" NAT support? This would really be a good feature or have these routers be more supportive of gaming environments and multiple game consoles. I believe this information is what has been the scourge of what some of us are seeing with newer generation DIR series routers and trying to attain OPEN NAT across the board with multiple gaming consoles. Especially with more and more houses having more than just one game console. Would be nice to be able to set up multiple game consoles with out having to go thru a lot of configurations to try to get OPEN NAT across the board. I believe that last router to support multiple game consoles was the DGL-5500. I didn't get a chance to test multiples on mine. I believe that Bipolar Bear told me that when he was using his, his two xboxes were seeing open nat across the board. However that was a gaming router so I presume Full Cone NAT was being supported there. And we all know how that model went.  ::)

Anyways, thank you for this info. Was wondering what was real going on. I felt that it had to do something with uPnP implementation and handling. Sure would be great of D-Link could add the Full Cone nat feature to there routers. I have one new generation non-D-Link router and I presume it has Full Cone NAT support as I get OPEN NAT across the board with it. Would like to see this with D-Link routers. Please.  ;)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on August 01, 2017, 07:53:17 AM
According to D-Link engineers, Symmetric NAT is preferred because it is the most secure.

I can only escalate a "feature request" case, which will add NAT type options just like DIR-855. However, these "requests" are only looked at if there is market demand.

More secure NAT vs Open NAT for multiple consoles.

https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Forums/Post/75409135 (https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Forums/Post/75409135)
http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/blog/2013/10/microsoft-the-best-xbox-one-gaming-experience-will-be-over-ipv6/ (http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/blog/2013/10/microsoft-the-best-xbox-one-gaming-experience-will-be-over-ipv6/)

According to Microsoft, IPv6 is the future and their Xbox Live backbone seems to be IPv6 ready, since a tunneling protocol is used, "Teredo", to connect IPv4 to IPv6 via port 3074. NAT will be phased out, if that is their goal.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 01, 2017, 09:54:05 AM
AH. More info. Thank you Sir.
Sounds like we are kind of in a gray zone with some need of multiple game consoles and gaming and looking into the future of gaming with IPv6. Would like to know if MS is doing any testing with multiple game consoles/games on IPv6. I for one, on a ISP service that doesn't support IPv6 natively currently. Been wondering when they are going to. Sure are dragging there heels.  ::)
I guess maybe one area that I have to look out for:
https://www.ipv6forum.com/ipv6_enabled/isp/approval_list.php?type=loc&content=US (https://www.ipv6forum.com/ipv6_enabled/isp/approval_list.php?type=loc&content=US)

Well for current time frame and current routers, I see those articles are 3-4 years old. I have seen that MS has support information for setting up the xbox for IPv6 and is fairly easy. Mostly auto detection. I presume that we would not be looking at correct configurations of ISP IPv6 support and modem/router combos and external routers to ensure IPv6 configurations are correct for gaming. I presume D-Link as well as other router mfrs will want to review that as well. Should I get native IPv6 support in the future and have multiple game consoles, I will revisit this.

Well, I know that others have moved on from using D-Link routers for this reason, they still have them but for multiple gaming applications and configurations, secure NAT or not, kind of makes things hard for those with more than one game console to enjoy gaming. A big thing with most gamers is performance and good networking conditions. OPEN NAT across the board is the golden rule and we've been hard at work trying to maintain that in current products. We've seen it on older D-Link routers and new generation routers, non D-Link. I presume that current gamers will have to keep all of this in mind and when looking at routers, will need to ask Mfrs about Full Cone and Symmetric NAT until such time that MS and IPv6 becomes the norm for gaming and we can all leave NAT behind. Until then, we don't know when that will be. And for some, like me, some ISPs haven't implemented IPv6 yet. So we are still left behind those ISPs that do have IPv6 native support. Also I presume that game Mfrs themselves will have to implement support of the IPv6 protocol as well on some level. It would be nice to know that D-Link could be supportive if someone asked if there routers were full cone NAT supporting.  ;)
Would be nice if there was just a radio button to switch to FULL CONE NAT for multiple gaming environments in the new UI.

I believe there is a market demand however may not seem as big as we've been trying and struggling with current routers or others have found other router Mfrs to use that seem to have better support for multiple gaming consoles so the usage of D-Link routers maybe lower than whats really seen. Just talking here. This issue isn't seen with just one came console/PC.  ::)

I guess that we will have to find whats works best for gamers until IPv6 gets fully going in the gaming realm and gamers start fully using it when MS and Game Mfrs start fully implementing it.

Thank you for your time and info. Good Stuff.

According to D-Link engineers, Symmetric NAT is preferred because it is the most secure.

I can only escalate a "feature request" case, which will add NAT type options just like DIR-855. However, these "requests" are only looked at if there is market demand.

More secure NAT vs Open NAT for multiple consoles.

https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Forums/Post/75409135 (https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Forums/Post/75409135)
http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/blog/2013/10/microsoft-the-best-xbox-one-gaming-experience-will-be-over-ipv6/ (http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/blog/2013/10/microsoft-the-best-xbox-one-gaming-experience-will-be-over-ipv6/)

According to Microsoft, IPv6 is the future and their Xbox Live backbone seems to be IPv6 ready, since a tunneling protocol is used, "Teredo", to connect IPv4 to IPv6 via port 3074. NAT will be phased out, if that is their goal.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 01, 2017, 12:27:52 PM
I presume that all current D-Link and new model routers forth coming, i.e. (EXO) routers are all Symmetric NAT routers?  ???

Can you tell use when FULL CONE NAT stopped being implemented or supported? Which model routers were the last models? Which starting model routers were only supporting symmetric? I remember the DIR-645 seemed to support two xboxes at the time. However we had the 360s back then. I might dig out my amplify line and DIR-868L and re-test. Just curious is all.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on August 02, 2017, 07:15:20 AM
Yes, I think its those routers with the new GUI. I think all the routers are on Symmetrical NAT by default but the old routers with the "orange" GUI has the feature to change it.

It would be nice if we can change the ports on the Xbox One. Then we can just set a port forwarding rule statically and disable NAT.

I presume that all current D-Link and new model routers forth coming, i.e. (EXO) routers are all Symmetric NAT routers?  ???

Can you tell use when FULL CONE NAT stopped being implemented or supported? Which model routers were the last models? Which starting model routers were only supporting symmetric? I remember the DIR-645 seemed to support two xboxes at the time. However we had the 360s back then. I might dig out my amplify line and DIR-868L and re-test. Just curious is all.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 02, 2017, 08:30:12 AM
Ok, thank you.

Ya, changing ports would be nice on the console. I was suggested to by another router user to try and set up a static IP address configuration on the 2nd xbox, then set up a PF rule configuration on the router and set the port to 3075 and see if this would help. I might try this.

Just hoping to overall to get OPEN NAT using just uPnP like with the old routers. I guess for users with two or more consoles, we'll need to find routers that support full cone nat until such time that IPv6 becomes the norm for gaming.

I contacted my ISP yesterday, they returned this:
"Thank you for contacting support. We do apologize for the inconvenience, however Cable ONE currently does not have any plan to implement IPv6. "

 ::)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on August 02, 2017, 11:10:22 AM
Well, there are other solutions beside migrating to IPv6 or getting a router that supports Cone NAT. Microsoft can actually fix this since they know, routers in general, do not all function the same way with NAT.

Ok, thank you.

Ya, changing ports would be nice on the console. I was suggested to by another router user to try and set up a static IP address configuration on the 2nd xbox, then set up a PF rule configuration on the router and set the port to 3075 and see if this would help. I might try this.

Just hoping to overall to get OPEN NAT using just uPnP like with the old routers. I guess for users with two or more consoles, we'll need to find routers that support full cone nat until such time that IPv6 becomes the norm for gaming.

I contacted my ISP yesterday, they returned this:
"Thank you for contacting support. We do apologize for the inconvenience, however Cable ONE currently does not have any plan to implement IPv6. "

 ::)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 02, 2017, 11:48:54 AM
Ya I know. I see that routers are very different. So are the games we play.  I guess I was lucky when I got the newer generation non-Dlink router that seems to handle two consoles with OPEN NAT across the board. While one other I have doesn't, including the newer DIR series routers I have. Ya, would be nice for MS to do something. However history says with MS, they usually don't do anything. Not sure if you remember or heard about the 360 Slim wireless? Several years ago someone said that the Slim edition of the 360 would not wirelessly connect over 11Mb rates on there D-Link router. I didn't have one at the time however my friend did. I did some testing on the routers I had at the time, I found that older generation routers the 260 Slim could connect up to about 130Mb on 2.4Ghz. Then newer generation routers at the time, it would only connect at 11Mb. I passed this on to D-Link. One PM responded to me directly and said that this was a MS wireless driver issue on the Slim. MS never responded or corrected the issue on there console.  >:(

If we can maybe come up with some ideas of what we can do with current consoles and routers with Symmetric NAT only support, would be good if we can help gamers with multiple consoles and games to work well on D-Link routers. Current ones that is.

I still believe that more and more house holds have more than one game console now days especially with children and parents who are gamers as well. There are some games that allow for splits screen operation, however there are some games that don't so this would be a contributing factor in getting another console. Split screen gaming is ok, and back in the day was what we had for single game consoles and games, however now days, I even can't game well when split screening. Especially on CoD games. It's hard to concentrate visually and audibly when your trying to focus on one portion of the screen and hear what is going on in the game near buy in your head set and having someone sit next to you and hear what there saying and not see what there doing on there side of the screen. I would buy an another console to avoid this. LOL.

So can you make contact with MS and see what they say about all this? I'd be curious if you were able to get any information from MS/XBL about this since D-Link I presume would has some contacts there.  ::)
Would be something to ask about and see if there is any thing else we can do currently. You would think one person at MS would be interested in this. I presume we may not see any response or if MS does anything, it may not be seen in our current generation game consoles as like they do before, they would push the changes to new products and make us buy new stuff.  >:(

Would be nice if D-Link could make there new routers more supporting in this regard as well if possible.  :-\

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 03, 2017, 06:56:13 AM
Any thoughts of uPnP 2.0?
http://www.upnp.org/specs/arch/UPnP-arch-DeviceArchitecture-v2.0.pdf (http://www.upnp.org/specs/arch/UPnP-arch-DeviceArchitecture-v2.0.pdf)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on August 03, 2017, 12:14:10 PM
https://community.playstation.com/content/pdc/us/en_US/pdc-communities/support/PlayStation-Network-Support.topic.html/multiple_playstation-bM2X.html (https://community.playstation.com/content/pdc/us/en_US/pdc-communities/support/PlayStation-Network-Support.topic.html/multiple_playstation-bM2X.html)
Check that out, PS4 is also having this issue. PS4 responds by suggesting to use port forwarding another port or get IPv6 or purchase another public IP.

UPnP 2.0
Hmm, I think UPnP is doing its job by opening/closing ports when ever needed but Symmetrical NAT does not allow multiple IP addresses to the same already opened port. Basically, UPnP can open and close ports but NAT decides which and how many IP addresses are assigned to that port, especially inbound traffic. Full Cone NAT, allows any IP to connect to that same port, so not just the Live server but the players wanting to join.



Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 03, 2017, 12:32:26 PM
Wow, glad that MS isn't the only one.  ::)

Ok, thank you for this. Helps to understand this as best as we can.

Ok, I presume at this time there maybe no real work around or configurations for multiple game consoles and working with Symmetric NAT only based routers.

I took a step back yesterday and wanted to see if the DIR-868L Rev A could work. It's the old UI however EndPoint features are hidden on this UI. Revealing the hidden features in FF with No Style pages, I found that the hidden feature was set for Port Restricted. I attempted to set EndPoint Independent to see if the actual feature was still valid. It's not. I couldn't get OPEN NAT on the 2nd console in game. I figured that the actual  feature was removed from the FW and just hidden from view in the UI.

I loaded up my DIR-857, which also the Endpoint feature is hidden, however looking at it's hidden feature in FF, It's set for Endpoint Independent. With this router I'm able to get OPEN NAT across the board and in game, BO3 on both consoles.

I was just curious on were this Endpoint feature stops responding in the various model routers I have. I have a DIR-836L that I'll try. I presume that the Amplify line and backwards campiagn models will afford some support for multiple game consoles as from what you say, they can be set for this Full Cone NAT kind of configuration which seems to work for two or more consoles.

Would be nice to have this feature option again for newer routers. I see that the DIR-882-US is set to hit soon. I've seen advertisement info about it being a good media streaming and gaming router. I suppose it would be a good gaming router for a single household console. If what you say that all new generation routers are Symmetric NAT only, it won't be good for multiple game consoles.  :-\

I'm going to try and pick one up and demo it for a week or so while i have the gaming resources...
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 03, 2017, 12:38:48 PM
And all these links to xbox and playstation information about this and the posts are years old now:
"Jan 11 2017, 6:48 PM
This post is 3 years old dosn't look like SONY cares or any console company for that matter. I have been fighting this all the way back to the original Xbox days. This has happened on Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox 1,  PS3, and PS4. Don't think this is something that will get fixed. This has been a problem for over a decade. Sony/Microsoft just don't care otherwise they would reply to our posts with up dates. We are on our own guys....."

Sure seems like MS and Sony don't care about this issue.  ::)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on August 07, 2017, 01:14:06 PM
I was digging through our database, and I found a "feature request" case for "NAT endpoint filtering" back in 2014. The reason was to force "full cone NAT" but it was rejected.

Why it was rejected?
-will effect NAT performance.
-user may not use it and in today's world
-applications works perfectly under NAT
-less interoperability issue.
-more secure






Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 07, 2017, 01:32:07 PM
Wow, Was around the time frame we started working on this issue I believe...

I presume maybe some NAT performance could be an issue, especially on higher ISP speed tiers maybe? Currently working on the DGL-4500 and DIR-655 on a 100/3 it doesn't seem to be an issue. Maybe it could be on higher speeds, say 500Mb or greater. I presume for those on 1Gb ISPs would see issues. Depending if HW or CTF acceleration is supported and enabled. We see this mentioned on other Mfr routers and 1Gb ISP speeds. Its needed to achieve 900~Mb speeds on home routers. Not sure what D-Link does.

I think someone needs to revisit this as in todays world, there are more and more households with two or more game consoles. I know 3 house holds personally. Bipolar Bear and BiggShooter being two of them. I'm one as well. It would be nice to have some router flexability in this regard for house holds with more than one game console. Also gaming is a fair portion of the market. I would think in todays world at least.  ::)

I've proved that not all applications work under Symmetric NAT only. Yes for single game consoles and PCs it works well. However when two or more applications, i.e. gaming are introduced, it's doesn't work well, at least with Symmetric NAT only routers. Again, only older D-Link routers can this be done and one other newer generation non-D-Link router does this work. This newer generation router supports full cone nat from what response I got from asking about it.

Less Interoperability and more secure? These don't make sense. I presume more secure refers to Symmetric NAT?

Seems that when Endpoint features were on the older routers, we didn't have must issues. We did see some connections issues however was resolved by changing from Port or Address Restricted to Endpoint which seems to help resolved these issues. Especially with gaming. Seems to add more flexibility of the router to handle certain kinds of interoperability issues with connected devices.

FYI, I've just bought a new non D-Link gaming router and currently testing it out. So far, I presume it's Symmetric Only NAT as I'm not getting OPEN NAT across the board. It's touted as there premier gaming router too. Maybe only for single gaming environments.  ::)

Would be nice to have D-Link revisit this again and have more flexibility, even if as an option for gaming. Something to consider.
My 2 cents.




Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BiggShooter on August 07, 2017, 01:55:53 PM
I think it's safe to assume that most households now have at least two gaming consoles from the same manufacturer (Microsoft Xbox One / Sony PS4 Pro).  I am one of those households.  It's rather frustrating that most routers seem "locked down" when it comes to settings / management / configuration.  I've been a D'Link fan for many years, and generally D'Link routers have served my home very well  in every aspect (gaming / connected devices both wired and wireless) however, I've been forced to move to another router manufacturer as my last D'Link router (DIR-890L) simply wasn't "user" friendly for my home networking needs.  I have 30+ wired / wireless devices that are currently connected to my home network.  I want to be able to manually assign IP addresses to most of my devices.  With the 890L, I was limited to less than 20 before the router starting exhibiting issues.  I should be able to reserve as many IP addresses for devices as I want.  This is something that I'm able to do with the current router manufacturer I'm using in my home.  Having two Xbox One gaming consoles and gaming online, it was / STILL IS important that both Xbox One gaming consoles achieved / achieve OPEN NAT while online / gaming.  With the 890L, this wasn't possible.  I really hope D'Link doesn't move away from routers, but IMO, should they continue supporting past and current routers, they need to look at what is IMPORTANT for today's home networking needs.

I thought I'd chime in.  It's been a long time since I posted to the D'Link forums.  I'll keep a close *watch* on this thread.   :)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BIPOLAR BEAR on August 07, 2017, 05:06:16 PM
   Yes I do believe it is safe to say that most households do have more than one game console, or gaming pcs' in the network frame.
I don't post on this forum a whole lot since my issues with the DGL 4500 have been resolved. I am somewhat baffled that a router like the 890L does not have a full cone NAT.
I had the 4500 online with 5-6 game consoles. Although the DSL ISP I had to use because it was them or WIFI didn't leave me with much bandwidth, maybe .5-.7 MBPS on the up and at the peak I was seeing 6.119 MPBS down. Either way, the devices used never saw anything but an open NAT on dashboard and in game. Now gaming on the other hand was a different story. Not the routers fault! Even with the kids' friends coming over and running their consoles on the WIFI ...still open. Logging in on the Admin page and seeing all the allocated IP addresses not set up in DHCP was a nightmare. The router still handled the traffic.
Moving On!
I am baffled to see that the 890L does not support a full cone NAT. I expected to see a few glitches and FW updates after I purchased this router, but now I'm not so sure about my purchase. I bought it when we finally received a cable upgrade (it increasing is getting faster) I now have 12+MBPS up and over 120MBPS down. I was excited when I read about this router. I have been a fan of Dlink since I bought my 4500 and my DSL modem. But with todays blazing internet speeds there should have been some forethought in the development of this router. More and more cities are seeing fiber networks and the speeds are insane. Everywhere you look there are data centers being built and I have heard that it's going to last 10+ years. ISP speeds will get faster and faster. But what good does it do if the router will not handle multi-platform gaming. Maybe I should have bought a router from the local Hardware store.
   What is actually the point? Seems like PS network, XBL do not seem to concerned. The information they have posted seems to be outdated. Looking at the pages for XBL network troubleshooting is mind numbing. It's like calling and getting a Tier one tech support from your ISP, or that automated B.S. " have you checked your cable", "unplugged your modem or router?" Like I'm under 12 or over 70.
   Time for network hardware developers, XBL, PS network, to step the game up and try and keep up with ISP capabilities. Otherwise multiplayer or multi-platform gaming is out of the question. We all might as well go back to Dial-up.
   If the DGL 4500 or 5500 would handle my upload and download I'd have no problem moving it to my other service.
I know next time before I drop a $300 bill I'll read more and maybe save myself a few bucks. Read more reviews on other products that do support a full cone NAT. Just like in gaming, once they start developing another game or the next BF or COD... the don't worry about those servers so much. Moving on to newer generation of routers must be the same. If there is no concerns with fixing this issue then... we could consider multiple connections from the same ISP, I could run 2 or 3 different modems from the same location and still be under what I pay a month for the one connection I have now. Then all the gaming devices would have an open NAT without the cost of a router.
  OK, I am done now >:(
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 08, 2017, 11:15:35 AM
Thank you Shooter and Bear for your input and feed back. Great information. I hope we can help get this resolved in some way.

I took off the other day and went and got a non-D-Link router to demo for a couple of weeks. Marketed as there Premiere "Gaming Router". At $388 and tax, for this kind of router you would think it would support multiple game consoles and same game configurations. So far I can't seem to find any configuration that does and presume it's a Symmetric NAT only router. IF there is, sure isn't easy to find or configured if there is a solution. I've posted in the Mfrs support forums however I doubt I'll get any feed back.  :-\
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 08, 2017, 09:50:19 PM
Interesting development from MS:  :o
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6si38n/psa_some_small_but_interesting_networking_changes/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6si38n/psa_some_small_but_interesting_networking_changes/)

Example:
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-20#post-340818 (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-20#post-340818)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 08, 2017, 10:57:49 PM
Who owns this NAT Type code?
Found this recent article:
https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1199384/NAT-traversal-for-Software-Developers? (https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1199384/NAT-traversal-for-Software-Developers?)

MIT License?

Here is the RFC:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-takeda-symmetric-nat-traversal-00 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-takeda-symmetric-nat-traversal-00)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on August 09, 2017, 02:32:39 PM
Alternate multiplayer port selection - This is great news for routers with symmetrical NAT. This will allow the 2nd console to have its own port to connect to the server, separate from the first console.

Test NAT type - I knew there was something inconsistent with how the xbox1 detects NAT restrictions. No need to reboot each time to get a NAT scan going.

Some under-the-hood UPnP improvements - Awesome, this will increase NAT performance. Connect to server and other players faster.

Interesting development from MS:  :o
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6si38n/psa_some_small_but_interesting_networking_changes/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6si38n/psa_some_small_but_interesting_networking_changes/)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 09, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
Hopefully and if it works, will it work well with current Symmetric NAT type? I suppose we will see.

One made a comment on SNB about maybe Symmetric NAT should be looked at and reviewed for improvements and corrections. Was said that Symmetric NAT has some problems of it self.  ???

We'll if MS pushes this, I hope this will make gaming on newer DIR series routers better. I'm still concerned about Symmetric NAT handling of two or more consoles with same game running. I suppose we'll have to see when that time comes. There is hope though.

I'd still like to see a small additional feature to DIR series routers to allow users to use the FULL CONE NAT method if possible. This seems to be what works well for gaming.

I found out that my one newer generation non-D-Link router is full cone nat supporting. Why this router works well with two consoles with just reserved IPs, QoS and uPnP. Unfortunately this new "gaming" router I picked up only supports Symmetric from what I'm getting.  :-\
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 10, 2017, 02:48:50 PM
Lets review this please:
>Gaming with Full Cone vs Symmetric NAT Routers (http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BIPOLAR BEAR on August 10, 2017, 02:59:01 PM
Good info Shooter and Furry Nutz
  Yes Furry I would like to see a full cone NAT on the DIR series routers as well, especially since one of my posts was from February 2010 on the DGL 4500 and it's still going strong. To bad it can't handle all of today's speeds. I certainly hope DLink will look at this issue. I'll try to keep my eye on this to see what happens and keep up to date.
Thanks
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 10, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
Thank you Bear for your input.

Please review the new link. Some good info there. I believe if the powers the be can review that, maybe, just maybe something will happen. Would like to see everyone involve consider helping get this issue resolved. Would only seem to benefit everyone.  ;)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 11, 2017, 06:31:34 AM
For anyone wanting to see what kind of NAT there routers are using:
http://nattest.net.in.tum.de (http://nattest.net.in.tum.de)

Needs Java installed to run. Seems like a nice little app to check what your router uses. Just what we need for all of these routers and gaming. I'm going to start testing.  ;)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BIPOLAR BEAR on August 14, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
Well hopefully we can see something done about this soon. Between the game developers, D-link, Xbox, and PS4 networks. Faster speeds don't do much without optimal performance. I'm not a great gamer but I've been seeing some pretty sketchy things lately, now I'm wondering if it's the router
Thanks for the info BTW
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 14, 2017, 04:22:02 PM
Same here. I think they are looking into this. I believe MS is. Not sure about Sony. It involves a few and not just router Mfrs.  ;)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 16, 2017, 01:05:40 PM
Wanted to post this here as well for users wanting to see what kind of NAT is being seeing on there xbox 1 consoles:
1. Go into Settings, Network Settings.
2. Click on ‘Test Multiplayer Connection’
3. After the connection runs, and before selecting the button to continue, simultaneously press both bumpers and both triggers on the controller, then release. A more detailed test will then run and the detailed NAT type description will be shown.
NOTE: The XB1 results are not as detailed as the linked NAT test tool. Results for FULL CONE NAT show as CONE NAT, which isn't exact enough to test since there are other forms of CONE NAT.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BIPOLAR BEAR on August 21, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
That was interesting, held down both bumpers and triggers simultaneously. Got a 2 ms lower ping than I did when I ran the "detailed network statistic" test. I was unaware of using this. I will use it in the future. Thanks again Furry! :P
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on August 23, 2017, 01:47:59 PM
Ya, helps to get more information on what the console is doing and seeing. I wish they would just make that info default. I think also holding all the buttons also clears some networking caches I believe. Not fully sure about that. I'm hoping that this new MS port feature thats coming out will help in all off this and we can use just about any router for multiple game consoles. We'll see though.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on September 05, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Another thought that I have experiences and got information from others in a different forum using a non D-Link router, I'm seeing good behavior with 3rd Party FW and IPTables that are configured with in the FW to help resolve this issue. Possible how IPTables are configured with in the OEM FW may not allow this. IPTables may impact how some FW and everything is being handled for two or more consoles and two same games.

Also new Update from MS via Redit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6ybol4/psa_some_helpful_features_in_network_settings/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6ybol4/psa_some_helpful_features_in_network_settings/)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: BIPOLAR BEAR on September 15, 2017, 07:50:41 AM
GOOD stuff there!
  Nice to know XBOX has already started working on some issues we've been having. Although I don't think I've ever seen a "double NAT" or had UPnP fail.
Still nice to know that issues are being looked into. Thanks for all your research and keeping us up to speed Mr. FurryNutz   ;D
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on September 15, 2017, 09:42:15 AM
Double NAT is only seen if you have two routers on the same line. I.e. ISP modem router combo with a DIR series router behind it.

GOOD stuff there!
  Nice to know XBOX has already started working on some issues we've been having. Although I don't think I've ever seen a "double NAT" or had UPnP fail.
Still nice to know that issues are being looked into. Thanks for all your research and keeping us up to speed Mr. FurryNutz   ;D
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on September 19, 2017, 07:14:57 AM
Updated link to Bad Modem NAT posting:
http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=6 (http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=6)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on September 29, 2017, 09:48:31 AM
Wanted to update everyone. My roommates xbox one received an system update day before yesterday. He noticed the dash board had some changes on it. Of course, not to his liking. I asked him to show me the networking section. Low and behold under Advanced Networking is the Port feature. We only saw virtual ports listed here and not any 3074 ranged ports. I presumed my xbox was not going to see an update however I checked to be sure. Not updated. As soon as I get some time, I'll test to see if this new feature helps with Moderate NAT with some Port Address Restricted NAT kind routers that I have. Not sure if this feature needs to be on just one console or two or more. Will see.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 01, 2017, 03:53:33 PM
Still not working for 2nd console with a port address restricted NAT router and this new port feature:
http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21 (http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21)

 :-\
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 05, 2017, 10:48:20 AM
I reversed the order of consoles being turned on and still, 2nd console only see's Moderate NAT in game.  :-\
Any chance D-Links IPtables and or uPnP can be looked at to better handle nat status? Theres mention of this with Merlin code over on SNB.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on October 09, 2017, 10:56:28 AM
I wonder how the new port feature will work.. Does it allow port modification on the Xbox? Will BO3 follow the same port changes or will it continue to use 3074?


Still not working for 2nd console with a port address restricted NAT router and this new port feature:
http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21 (http://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21)

 :-\

Remember, uPnP is doing its simple job by assigning the ports requested by internal/external devices but it requires NAT's permission first. A full NAT will allow anything but a Symmetrical NAT is like a firewall.

D-Link is sticking with Port and address restricted cone NAT and so are the other router manufacturers. We can see this because most new router's use Symmetrical because it is more secure. Everyone wants a secure internet experience and that is the direction that most high tech companies are headed. This is going to be Microsoft's problem and they need to test and figure out how 2 Xboxs will need to work on a restricted NAT environment.


I reversed the order of consoles being turned on and still, 2nd console only see's Moderate NAT in game.  :-\
Any chance D-Links IPtables and or uPnP can be looked at to better handle nat status? Theres mention of this with Merlin code over on SNB.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 09, 2017, 02:52:25 PM
You bring up a good point. the Game maybe not be following the changes seen on the new PORT feature which is done on the console. There is a drop down of some either preselected or detected virtual ports. 50k port range seen here. 307x port numbers are not seen here.

I agree that Port Address and or Symmetric NAT is the wave of the future. I beginning to think that since this is a multi part issue that the final part is the game Mfr. Since Full Cone NAT and current uPnP implementations work with this configuration. I can only surmise that some games may not play well or use there own uPnP handling with PAR or Sym NAT and or possible that IPTables could play a role this in. I think that MS may have a role to play however I'm not seeing Moderate or Strict NAT on the console dash board. It's open up to this point for each console. It's when we start the 2nd console same game is when we see Moderate NAT, both BO3 and IW. So makes me think that there is game Mfr involvement some where or IPtables that could be adjusted.

I saw with ASUS OEM FW that on there PAR NAT router that 2nd in game would only get Moderate NATin same game. If I loaded the supported Merlin 3rd party FW on the same router to which RMerlin had adjusted the IPTables with in his FW, the 2nd in game console would get OPEN NAT while using this 3rd party FW which had it's IPTables adjusted for two game consoles playing same game. Not sure if more than two are supported as I couldn't test that out as I only have two consoles.  ::)

There any kind of configurations allowed in D-Link IPTables by chance?   I know that D-Link and other mfrs are keeping PAR or Sym NAT kinds.

Just trying to see if there would be a work around solution for using OEM FW and DIR series routers for two same game consoles while keeping PAR or Sym NAT kinds. Would be nice to have this flexibility, however I also understand that there maybe some market driven limits as well and usage. Still, there is a growing market of house holds with two or more game consoles.  ;) And yes, when and if IPv6 becomes the norm, we can put all of this to bed. However for now, i'm not gonna see that with my ISP from what they say, any time soon.  ::)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on October 10, 2017, 12:04:38 PM
IPTables? Yea you can create basic port-forwarding rules via GUI VirtualServer but anything more advance requires a debug CLI access to the router, only the programmers have access to that.

DIR-860L A1 F/W 1.00, has "NAT endpoint Filtering" but it was removed on v1.01 because it was a security vulnerability.


Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 10, 2017, 12:11:33 PM
Yes, I see that on ASUS Merlin FW, they allow user access to the CLI via telnet. Merlin was able to gather information for this and thus he was able to adjust the IPTables for his FW.

Ya I tried some of your suggestion in VS earlier in this thread. Didn't help.

Ya, I looked at some UI with out Styles in FF browser. Saw some routers with it hidden however didn't seem to do anything if I changed it to EndPoint Indy so I presumed the core code was removed while leaving the UI function hidden.

Any chance you could talk to the programmers to see if they could help on this? Allow for some IPTable adjustments for DIR series routers for this issue? I could probably get some info from Rmerlin on what he did maybe. Seems to work for that FW on PAR NAT routers. Would be nice if we could get something going on D-Link routers and gaming.

IPTables? Yea you can create basic port-forwarding rules via GUI VirtualServer but anything more advance requires a debug CLI access to the router, only the programmers have access to that.

DIR-860L A1 F/W 1.00, has "NAT endpoint Filtering" but it was removed on v1.01 because it was a security vulnerability.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 10, 2017, 03:49:52 PM
Some IPTables info we got from SNB:
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346612 (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346612)
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346615 (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346615)
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346638 (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346638)
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346654 (https://www.snbforums.com/threads/upnp-multiple-xbox-one-gaming-consoles-nat.35324/page-29#post-346654)
https://serverfault.com/questions/852982/setting-nat-type-with-iptables-and-test-with-raknet-detection-type (https://serverfault.com/questions/852982/setting-nat-type-with-iptables-and-test-with-raknet-detection-type)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on October 11, 2017, 08:05:18 AM
IPtables adjustment? That is something the engineers will never give out because it requires root access to the router. Besides those functions are beyond what a consumer router should be doing. You might as well get a bare-bone router and load your own router OS. Those IPTables commands are basically opening up NAT to full cone mode on specific LAN IPs.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on October 11, 2017, 09:08:53 AM
Furry,
Is your DIR-868 a full cone NAT on firmware v1.00?
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 11, 2017, 10:22:05 AM
I presumed IPTables were something to be kept confidential. Was thinking that maybe they could some how implement rule configurations with in the FW that when two or more same game consoles would be connected to a PAR or Symmetric NAT router, the FW would automatically handle this condition and configuration for D-Link routers. Like RMerlin did for his FW. I see that Netgear has a similar end user feature on there routers. NAT Filtering feature on there routers seems to help with this multiple console NAT issue as a buddy of mine has one of there PAR NAT routers and said that he was getting Moderate NAT on a 2nd console however once he changed the NAT Filtering setting, he now gets OPEN NAT across the board. And yes this is on a newer generation router. Just seeing if anything could be done for D-Link routers and multiple game consoles behind the scenes with out any end user intervention and not impact security.

IPtables adjustment? That is something the engineers will never give out because it requires root access to the router. Besides those functions are beyond what a consumer router should be doing. You might as well get a bare-bone router and load your own router OS. Those IPTables commands are basically opening up NAT to full cone mode on specific LAN IPs.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 11, 2017, 10:26:31 AM
I'd have to load it up and test it out. I thought I reported what NAT it was on badmodems. Guess i didn't add it. I know that I did test it and it reported PAR NAT if I remember on v1.12. I just downloaded v1.00 and will get it loaded and test it.

Furry,
Is your DIR-868 a full cone NAT on firmware v1.00?
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 11, 2017, 04:54:21 PM
Ok, loaded v1.00 on the 868L. 868L is connected to main host router in it's DMZ.
I Noticed that NAT Endpoint UI features are listed. I believe they are missing in later versions of FW. Loaded v1.12WW and the NAT Endpoint feature is missing from the UI. Looking at the v1.12 UI with out any styles reveals the NAT Filter feature is there and marked at Port and Address Restricted.

First test was with default NAT set to Port and Address Restricted

Here are the results of the test:

UPnP Test (?): found: DIR-868L
UPnP Port mapping works



 
STUN Test (?): Port Address Restricted Cone NAT



 
UDP Binding Test (?): Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
TCP Binding Test: Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
 
I changed to Endpoint Independent, rebooted the router, cleared browser caches, exited the browser then re-tested:
Here are the results of the test:


UPnP Test (?): found: DIR-868L
UPnP Port mapping works



 
STUN Test (?): Full Cone NAT



 
UDP Binding Test (?): Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
TCP Binding Test: Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
 


Did a test with the main host router NG R7800, cleared browser caches, exited the browser and tested:
Here are the results of the test:


UPnP Test (?): found: R7800 (Gateway)
UPnP Port mapping works



 
STUN Test (?): Full Cone NAT



 
UDP Binding Test (?): Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
TCP Binding Test: Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
 
So based on NAT Filter setting on v1.00 seems to dictate NAT kind. Any chance of getting NAT Filter UI features added back?  ::)
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on October 12, 2017, 02:21:30 PM
Remember, the request to add the feature back was already rejected back in 2013. =)

Try this: On 1.0, set to "Endpoint Independent" only and then save the configuration. Update firmware to the latest and then restore the configuration. Test the NAT again.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 12, 2017, 02:25:18 PM
Ok.

I presume that may not work. I already tried to select EndPoint by using No Styles, saving the configuration. It still reported PAR NAT.

Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 15, 2017, 12:00:34 PM
Well, very interesting.

Got FULL CONE NAT after loading v1.00, setting Endpoint Independent, setting up wifi. Then saving the configuration. Then didn't do a factory reset, just applied v1.12 FW over v1.00. I see that the router configuration was not erased and it kept the v1.00 configuration I had set up. I looked at the Firewall UI with no Styles and found Endpoint Independent was still selected after the v1.12 was installed.

Connected the 868L to my main host router in the DMZ and ran the NAT test: FULL CONE NAT
http://nattest.net.in.tum.de/individualResult.php?hash=538f0fb18ecac7f21006ebae9fe3c222 (http://nattest.net.in.tum.de/individualResult.php?hash=538f0fb18ecac7f21006ebae9fe3c222)

So do this mean the save configuration from v1.00 is saving the NAT Filter tables and even after applying v1.12 that the IPtables or filter rules for endpoint indy can still work? Can you explain this please?

I'll get my 868L set up as the main host router and do more testing with it being online and connect my two game consoles.

Remember, the request to add the feature back was already rejected back in 2013. =)

Try this: On 1.0, set to "Endpoint Independent" only and then save the configuration. Update firmware to the latest and then restore the configuration. Test the NAT again.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 15, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
Ok, put the 868L online as main host router. FULL CONE NAT:
http://nattest.net.in.tum.de/individualResult.php?hash=9d4889b497c15bdd7ea94d2d6a075c31 (http://nattest.net.in.tum.de/individualResult.php?hash=9d4889b497c15bdd7ea94d2d6a075c31)

Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: Gattsu on October 16, 2017, 07:36:54 AM
Very interesting. The 860L does the exact same thing.

I do not think it has the IPtables saved onto the configuration but the commands to activate it. Probably only the function to select NAT type was removed from GUI.

Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 16, 2017, 09:18:50 AM
Ya, I need to do more testing. I just put the 868L online yesterday and I didn't setup or test the xbox ones and QoS. We played some last nite, one was Moderate NAT.  ::)
 I believe this is due to me not setting up reservations for the xboxes and QoS. I'll get to that today and re-test them.

I know if you disable Styles in Safari or FF, you can see the NAT feature thats hidden. I tried to set them with the No Styles however didn't do anything to set FULL CONE NAT.
It would be interesting to see what the differences are between a v1.00 and a v1.## saved config file is. There a program we can look at these to compare them by chance? I'm interested to know why...

 
Very interesting. The 860L does the exact same thing.

I do not think it has the IPtables saved onto the configuration but the commands to activate it. Probably only the function to select NAT type was removed from GUI.
Title: Re: Achiveing OPEN NAT in game with two or more game console online at same time
Post by: FurryNutz on October 16, 2017, 02:45:12 PM
Ok, well had hoped that this could be a work around, even though I'm seeing full cone nat from the NAT test. 2nd same game console is still Moderate NAT. Which ever one comes online 2nd. First console is always OPEN NAT. Rebooted the router after doing a HARD OFF with both consoles. Still Moderate NAT on 2nd console.

I presume something in the IPTables or uPnP handling is still affecting NAT status for the 2nd same game console for the 868L.  :-\

Happens in both BO3 and IW.