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The Graveyard - Products No Longer Supported => Routers => DIR-850L => Topic started by: KernelSoftware on October 23, 2015, 05:46:49 PM

Title: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on October 23, 2015, 05:46:49 PM
In the Network configuration, there is no restriction on setting the router's IP address to a value in a Class A network (eg, 10.1.1.1) and the subnet mask can be set to values such as 255.0.0.0 or 255.255.0.0.  The DHCP server also allows setting a range in a Class A network (eg, 10.1.1.100 - 200).  However, when setting up this router in a Class A network, wireless clients work fine, but wired clients do not.  Wired clients cannot browse to the router and cannot access the Internet.

In contrast, previous generations of D-Link routers (eg, DIR-655) work fine when configured as a Class A network.  Is this a firmware bug in the current generation routers like the DIR-850L?  Or is this a purposeful new direction for the D-Link router product line?

Support for Class A networks has always been a distinguishing feature of D-Link routers when compared to similarly priced routers of other brands.  Also, I could not find any statement in the documentation that only Class C networks are now supported.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on October 24, 2015, 10:55:41 AM
Link>Welcome! (http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=48135.0)


My DIR-836L can do your configuration and my wired and wireless Mac Book Pro and iPhone 6 connects just fine. Mac Book Pro is wired to the router and is managing the router for this test.

You sure your configurations are correct on the wired PCs?
Be sure you have either released and cleared the IP leases on the PCS or do reboot after the router has been changed to the new IP address scheme.
Why are you using a Class A configuration for a home class router?
Is this for a home or business?

Might check your configurations before crying wolf.  ::)
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on October 27, 2015, 07:31:20 PM
FurryNutz, than you for your reply.  The answers to your questions:

•What Hardware version is your router?  B1
•Link>What Firmware version is currently loaded?  2.03
•What region are you located?  US

I tested the DIR-850L on 4 networks.  3 of the 4 networks had current cable modems.  On those Class A networks, the router was unable to be accessed by wired clients, but the wireless clients worked fine.  On 1 network with an older cable modem and a Class A network, all clients worked ok.  So, there was one instance that worked, but the cable company wants to upgrade that modem.  I have no idea why the modem would affect what happens on the local net.  All the modems were set to bridge mode.  Half the networks used static IP addresses and the other half had dynamic.  None of the IP addresses offered by the ISP were in the 10.x.x.x scope.

Yes, the wired client network settings were thoroughly tested.  For example, if the router was given an IP address of 10.1.1.1 with subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 and DHCP of 10.1.1.20 - 254, wired clients would get a dynamic IP like 10.0.0.200 (yes, 10.0.0.x, not 10.1.1.x) and they could access the router.  If the subnet mask was changed to 255.0.0.0, the wired clients would still get similar IP addresses (10.0.0.x), but they could not connect to the router.  Wireless clients worked fine either way, even if they were the same device (not connected to both ports at the same time).  The same results were obtained with and without the modem connected, except that clients that could access the router could also access the Internet.

Yes, the connections were reset and/or devices restarted to ensure fresh connections were made after any changes.

The DIR-655 had sufficient features to easily manage small business networks using Class A networks.  They are very reliable (zero failures in many years).  They also have all the required virtual server and port redirection features needed by small business.  Now, we want to update support to include the new wireless AC standard, so the DIR-850L looked to be a reasonable choice.  It has all the same features, but now Class A network support is broken (at least on current modems).

Who is your ISP?  What modem do you have?  Did you test clients using DHCP from the router and/or static IP addresses?  I tested both ways with the same results.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: ON4KKP on October 27, 2015, 10:42:51 PM
for testing  put behind the 655 an AC Access Point!
or put the 850 behind 655 in bridged mode
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on October 28, 2015, 06:59:30 AM
CableOne
Motorola SB 6121 pre Arris
DHCP only client wired to the back of my router and doing the configuration.

Let me check a different router. The Rev B version you have maybe a different code base. Does your UI have a all white and blue look and feel or is it a orange and white look like the DIR-655 has?

BTW the DIR-655 does not have Bridge mode. You can test the 850L out with the DIR-655 if you choose to by doing the following:
Turning a router into an AP. (http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=40856.0)
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on October 28, 2015, 07:59:30 PM
ON4KKP, thank you for your reply.  I did also add a DAP-2660, but also want to change out the router which covers a different space.

FurryNutz, thanks again for your reply.  The GUI of the DIR-850L I have has the newer design (white/blue), not the old look (black/orange) as did the DIR-655.  Thanks for checking into the Rev B version.  I'll check back . . .
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on October 30, 2015, 02:40:38 PM
Connecting my DIR-880L v1.05WW and setting our 10.1.1.1 configuration, my Mac Book Pro can access the routers web page and access the internet as I'm posting this thru the 880L: Speed test result
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/4790866290.png) (http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4790866290)

Changing the subnet to 255.0.0.0 results is same accessibility:
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/4790875291.png) (http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4790875291)

Possible that you have a configuration issue or your unit maybe faulty.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on October 31, 2015, 06:44:32 PM
Thanks FurryNutz.  Too bad you couldn't test a DIR-850L.  It's always nice to able to test the same models for exact comparison.

I doubt it is a configuration issue.  After resetting to factory defaults, I only change the router's IP address to 10.1.1.1, change the subnet mask to 255.0.0.0, and change the DHCP scope to 10.1.1.20 - 254.  After that, wired clients can no longer access the modem or Internet, except when using the one older modem I mentioned earlier.

If there's a DIR-850L owner out there that can test this, it would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 01, 2015, 12:37:35 PM
Possible you have a faulty unit. After testing two different routers here, I presume that maybe yours isn't working right.
I recommend that you phone contact your regional D-Link support office and ask for help and information regarding this. We find that phone contact has better immediate results over using email.
Let us know how it goes please.

Thanks FurryNutz.  Too bad you couldn't test a DIR-850L.  It's always nice to able to test the same models for exact comparison.

I doubt it is a configuration issue.  After resetting to factory defaults, I only change the router's IP address to 10.1.1.1, change the subnet mask to 255.0.0.0, and change the DHCP scope to 10.1.1.20 - 254.  After that, wired clients can no longer access the modem or Internet, except when using the one older modem I mentioned earlier.

If there's a DIR-850L owner out there that can test this, it would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 13, 2015, 01:54:31 PM
Thanks, FurryNutz.  VIP phone support is where I started.  As soon as I mentioned I was trying to use 10.1.1.1 with 255.255.0.0, I got an immediate "Sorry, not supported, case closed."  So, I thought I'd try here hoping someone has done this successfully.  Then, I would have known I had a bad unit.  Without that confirmation, I'm pretty much just stuck.

As a result, I have been shopping for SMB routers that do support Class A networks, AC Wi-Fi, and port redirection.  Cisco, Linksys, Netgear, ZyXEL, etc all say they don't have an SMB model that has those features.  The only one I've found is Draytek at twice the price, but we need those features.  We were very happy with D-Link, but they've dropped the ball here.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 13, 2015, 02:55:06 PM
Did you happend to ask them about the DSR series routers? These are there small business class router series and may offer the Class A networking your looking for.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: Hard Harry on November 13, 2015, 06:36:34 PM
When I see a problem with routing 10.x.x.x IP I immediately think something on the ISP side is using that space and the firewall on the new router is passing the ARP requests through, while the old router did not. Many ISP use the 10.0.0.0/8 block for their internal CMTS and routers.

Who is your ISP and what modem/gateway device do you have of theirs?
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 17, 2015, 06:53:16 PM
FurryNutz, my D-Link sales rep stated that the DSR models are going away, so I did not investigate them further.

Hard Harry, that was my first thought also.  However, we could not find any such addresses.  Everything we can find uses addresses in the ISP's range.  We did have an ISP long ago that did that, but our current ISP, Charter Communications, does not appear to do that.  Charter is now using Ubee modem/router combo units.  However, we use it in bridge mode.  We did test the DIR-850L on two older Charter modem/routers (SMC).  It worked on one, but not the other.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 17, 2015, 07:08:41 PM
Standard networking for DIR series routers in use with ISP modems, non router modems, typically use the public IP address (##.##.###.###) that passes thru the ISP modem and to the WAN side of the DIR router. 172.# or 192.# IP address is used on the LAN side. Unless you have specific needs on the LAN side, Class C addresses should be used and should work for your needs. If the ISP modem does have a router built in, some modems already have a Class C or should have a class C address on the LAN side, usually 192.168.1.#. Some ISP modems can be bridged and thus shutting off the modems internal router and then it should pass a public IP address (##.##.###.###) to the DIR router. However is some cases ISP modems may not be able to be bridged, thus the DIR router and ISP modem are in a double NAT condition and it's possible to use the IP address that's given to the DIR router from the ISP modem and input this into the modems DMZ. Depending what the ISP modems is using for DHCP addresses, if the are the same as the DIR router, then the DIR routers default pool should be changed from 192.168.0.1 to 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.2.1 for example on the LAN side of the DIR router as to avoid conflict between the ISP modem and DIR router. Class A addresses should not be needed on the DIR router or required by a ISP that I have ever heard of let alone Charter. I do believe Charter provides public IP addresses to there home customers. Only could be different maybe if your using a business service?

Have you tried using the 192.168 pool on the DIR? I presume this should work if the ISP modem is passing a public IP address and in bridge mode.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: Hard Harry on November 18, 2015, 11:25:45 AM
FurryNutz, my D-Link sales rep stated that the DSR models are going away, so I did not investigate them further.

Hard Harry, that was my first thought also.  However, we could not find any such addresses.  Everything we can find uses addresses in the ISP's range.  We did have an ISP long ago that did that, but our current ISP, Charter Communications, does not appear to do that.  Charter is now using Ubee modem/router combo units.  However, we use it in bridge mode.  We did test the DIR-850L on two older Charter modem/routers (SMC).  It worked on one, but not the other.

I think your misunderstanding me. I don't mean the ISP use those IP for devices or IPs given to customers, I mean the ISP use the IP range for their own network. IE tracert to google.com and look at the first 2 hops after your modem/gateway. They will probably be 10.x.x.x IPs. Usually the HFC interface of the CMTS. I found this to be true for most cable based ISP's. Long story short, either need to add custom firewall rules or use a different IP space.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 21, 2015, 03:24:07 PM
FurryNutz, I do understand all of what you said.  The Charter modem/router is in bridge mode and does provide a public IP address to the DIR router.  We don't use a Class A network on the DIR router due to the ISP; the customer's network is using a Class A network.  Yes, the default addressing (192.168.0.x) works fine, but does not meet the customer requirement.  Using a Class A network on previous versions of DIR routers (eg, DIR-655) worked fine with the exact same settings, ISP, and ISP modem/router.  This has only been an issue starting with the DIR-850L we've been testing.

Also, I apologize for the misstatement above.  The DSR routers are not going away; the DFL routers are going away.

Our D-Link rep stated the DFL routers were the only D-Link routers to support Class A networks, despite the fact that Class A networks have worked on previous models of DIR routers.  There is nothing in the DIR settings, specs, or documentation stating Class A networks cannot be used and the router does not prohibit entering Class A settings.  Other brands of routers restrict owners to Class C networks within the router's settings.  D-Link does not.  So, this is either implied support for Class A networks or poor firmware coding.

Hard Harry, I understood what you meant.  A tracert shows the first 7 hops to be in the 96.x.x.x range and none in the 10.x.x.x range overall.  Also, if this was not the case, it shouldn't work with the older routers (DIR-655) either, but it works fine.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 21, 2015, 03:37:45 PM
The support in the 655 may have been a unknown added feature on older home class routers and it may have been removed on newer generation routers. All I can say is that D-Link told me that class A is not supported on there home class routers. So you may want to research and review DSR series business routers for any future Class A configurations needs. Good Luck.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 21, 2015, 03:46:31 PM
Yeah, I got the same story without further explanation.  They state that now, but nowhere in the documentation or settings that I could find.  Our D-Link rep also stated Class A networks are not supported on their DSR series either, only the end-of-life DFL routers.  Port redirection is also a requirement and I've found support only on D-Link and Draytek routers, so far (not Cisco, Netgear, ZyXEL, etc).
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 21, 2015, 03:58:33 PM
Only explanation I can think if is that there may have not been class standards between home and business routers or firewall appliance devices back then. I can only surmised that as standards were reviewed over the years at D-Link, marketing and or standards caused a change in what was coded in all home class routers and logically thinking, no much call for class A configurations in the consumer home environment so they may have figured that why included it when it's not being used. Any usually networking standards has never been in any router Mfr support documentation other than on the web and networking sites noting that is handed down by the certification and standards people.

I might suggest maybe checking out the DIR-868L or 866L model routers. These are the last of the old UI thats like the DIR-655 and may still have some additional features maybe. Other than this. If DSR series don't support Class A then, try HP Enterprise and see if they might have anything. Possible that Enterprise products maybe worth reviewing. It's just that Class A is meant for enterprise close high end business systems, not a lot of use for mom and pop on the home front.  :-\
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 22, 2015, 12:30:41 PM
Thanks FurryNutz.  However, I disagree with this statement: "Any usually networking standards has never been in any router Mfr support documentation other than on the web and networking sites noting that is handed down by the certification and standards people."  Other manufacturers make lack of Class A network support obvious in their firmware; they don't allow you to set the subnet mask to anything other than 255.255.255.0.  The D-Link firmware allows you to set any values in IP address and subnet mask.  You only find out there's an issue when it doesn't work; there are no warnings, errors, or alerts.  And, it does actually work with some modems and it does work with wireless clients.  Only wired clients when using some modems are affected.  That makes the issue appear as if it was a bug in firmware rather than a company policy to not support Class A networks, regardless of the actual intent.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 23, 2015, 03:41:45 PM

Well maybe however it comes down to what network standards say and are applicable too. A is for big business and enterprise, C is for the home. I presume router Mfrs just may to choose to state this in any support documentation due to these known specs. Would be up to Mfr to put that in or know I guess. Ya, would be nice however again, probably boils down to usage by that masses. Each Mfr does there own thing.  I would presume that it would be up to users to review and research this information prior to making any purchases. Assuming that each router is the same prior or follow on would not be wise.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 23, 2015, 05:03:13 PM
Early versions of Microsoft Small Business Server defaulted to Class A network settings during setup.  That's software specifically designed for small business with a limited number of users.  So, lots of small businesses started out as Class A networks and continue to use ithem today.  Since D-Link SMB routers used to support Class A networking, it must not have been a big issue to do so.  Too bad it decided against continuing that tradition.  The change just doesn't make any sense to me.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 24, 2015, 12:26:40 PM
Understandable...well again, may have been that for home use, they chose to take it out or not include it in newer stuff. Again, were taking home vs business. Comes down to testing and money. Why spend money and time/development, and testing features when they are mostly not going to be used by the avg home user.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 24, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
Yeah, that's one of my points exactly.  Most of the features in the DIR series routers are not going to be used by typical home users.  So, why are they there in the first place?  Until the lack of Class A support appeared, I thought D-Link was underselling these products.  They could easily be used by SMB customers.  Now, not so much.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 24, 2015, 02:51:34 PM
Who knows. You'll have to find something that does work for your needs. Good Luck.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: KernelSoftware on November 24, 2015, 10:06:35 PM
Yeah, I found that the DrayTek Vigor2925ac supports port redirection and Class A networks, as long as you do not use the router's internal DHCP server.  However, that works out fine, since customers using Class A networks all use a domain-base DHCP server anyway.  Thank you for all your efforts.
Title: Re: DIR-850L wired clients cannot use Class A networking
Post by: FurryNutz on November 25, 2015, 10:03:40 AM
The the DIR-850L would support Class A if you disabled the DHCP server in you case then.

Good Luck in your endeavours.  ;)